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It was Lyndall Gordon (Eliot’s Early Years, p. 24) who remarked about
Eliot’s notion that “to satisfy love was to destroy it forever.”

CR

On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 4:51 PM Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> As Tim Materer just pointed out, that is not a correct translation. The
> correct one is generally available, including in Ricks. It is not about
> remembering. Also, Venus is "disguised" as a huntress, hence "maiden."
>
> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 3:34 PM Chanan Mittal <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> “How shall I remember you, maiden, as a human or divine presence? You
>> look so divine.” Well, an elaboration, if you like.
>>
>> CR
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 12:43 PM Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> She was quite lovely, and apparently he did care a lot for her, given
>>> that he corresponded with her later for 30 years. I don't see what that has
>>> to do with what the choice of Aeneas about Venus or about whether the poem
>>> was suggested by leaving her.
>>>
>>> But my prior point was about Venus, not whether Eliot had Hale in mind.
>>> N
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 12:12 PM Chanan Mittal <[log in to unmask]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> An image of Emily Hale that stands out vis-a-vis LA FIGLIA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.scrippscollege.edu/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/files/2013/02/Emily-Hale.jpg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CR
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 11:51 AM Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Two things matter here. First, Eliot repeatedly denied that the poem
>>>>> was about any woman at all but about a statue that, in fact, he never saw.
>>>>> Not that that means he really had no emotional experience behind it,
>>>>> whatever he denied.
>>>>>
>>>>> But the "maiden" was Venus, goddess of love (also his mother), and she
>>>>> is about to send him to the palace of Dido, where he will be protected and
>>>>> where he will fall in love with Dido (or at least she will be in love and
>>>>> he will be her lover/partner in building Carthage until Zeus tells him to
>>>>> leave). She appears specifically for the purpose of sending him there.
>>>>>
>>>>> That scene is not about transcending the merely human but about going
>>>>> off to find what turns out to be a very physical and passionate and human
>>>>> love (they make love in a cave in a rainstorm and she takes that as
>>>>> marriage). Venus was divine and celestial but hardly into Platonic love.
>>>>>
>>>>> If one uses that image and story, it does matter what is happening in
>>>>> the story.
>>>>> Nancy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 11:37 AM Chanan Mittal <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> A further observation, s’il vous plait.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "By what  name should I address you, maiden; for your face is not
>>>>>> mortal, nor has your voice a human ring to it. Surely you are a goddess?".
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The poet of LA FIGLIA utilizes a remark by Aeneas that underscores
>>>>>> the divine aspect of the maiden he comes across in his own romantic context
>>>>>> of Emily Hale to stress the need for transcending the merely human and
>>>>>> embracing the divine in that relationship. “Weave, weave the sunlight in
>>>>>> your hair.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CR
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 9:27 AM Materer, Timothy J. <
>>>>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The epigraph to LA FIGLIA, “O quam te memorem virgo ...” literally
>>>>>>> translated to “O how shall I remember you virgin” proved prophetic
>>>>>>> vis-a-vis Emily Hale, in that she became for him an object of memory.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In about an hour, I’ll be discussing this poem with my adult ed
>>>>>>> class, so a further observation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It’s ok to pun on “memorem,” but the literal word is not “memory.”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "O quam te memorem  virgo. . . ." It comes from the first book of
>>>>>>> the Aeneid, where Aeneas's  mother Venus, disguised as a virgin huntress,
>>>>>>> meets him in the woods at  Carthage and speaks to him. Aeneas answers:
>>>>>>> "O-quam te memorem, virgo? namque  haud tibi voltus / mortalis, nec vox
>>>>>>> hominem sonat; o dea certe!" "By what  name should I address you, maiden;
>>>>>>> for your face is not mortal, nor has your  voice a human ring to it. Surely
>>>>>>> you are a goddess?". .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Some see the poem as a meditation on Aeneas’ parting from Dido,
>>>>>>> but Gordon and others as his parting from Emily Hale. Timothy Materer
>>>>>>> English Department, University of Missouri The James Merrill
>>>>>>> Listserv http://faculty.missouri.edu/materert/Merrill/list.html
>>>>>>> <http://faculty.missouri.edu/materert/Merrill/list.html> --THIS FICTIVE
>>>>>>> SPACE WE HERE INHABIT IS / THE STOP TO TIME *
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>