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Not Eliot’s remark but Eliot’s belief, I guess.

CR

On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 4:00 PM Chanan Mittal <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Distinctly remember having read somewhere about Eliot’s remark that “to
> consummate love is to destroy it for ever.”  That might throw some light on
> LA FIGLIA, as well as on his relationship with Emily Hale.
>
> CR
>
> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 3:41 PM Chanan Mittal <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Reminiscent of Dante’s take on Beatrice.
>>
>> CR
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 3:34 PM Chanan Mittal <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> “How shall I remember you, maiden, as a human or divine presence? You
>>> look so divine.” Well, an elaboration, if you like.
>>>
>>> CR
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 12:43 PM Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> She was quite lovely, and apparently he did care a lot for her, given
>>>> that he corresponded with her later for 30 years. I don't see what that has
>>>> to do with what the choice of Aeneas about Venus or about whether the poem
>>>> was suggested by leaving her.
>>>>
>>>> But my prior point was about Venus, not whether Eliot had Hale in mind.
>>>> N
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 12:12 PM Chanan Mittal <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> An image of Emily Hale that stands out vis-a-vis LA FIGLIA
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.scrippscollege.edu/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/files/2013/02/Emily-Hale.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> CR
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 11:51 AM Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Two things matter here. First, Eliot repeatedly denied that the poem
>>>>>> was about any woman at all but about a statue that, in fact, he never saw.
>>>>>> Not that that means he really had no emotional experience behind it,
>>>>>> whatever he denied.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But the "maiden" was Venus, goddess of love (also his mother), and
>>>>>> she is about to send him to the palace of Dido, where he will be protected
>>>>>> and where he will fall in love with Dido (or at least she will be in love
>>>>>> and he will be her lover/partner in building Carthage until Zeus tells him
>>>>>> to leave). She appears specifically for the purpose of sending him there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That scene is not about transcending the merely human but about going
>>>>>> off to find what turns out to be a very physical and passionate and human
>>>>>> love (they make love in a cave in a rainstorm and she takes that as
>>>>>> marriage). Venus was divine and celestial but hardly into Platonic love.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If one uses that image and story, it does matter what is happening in
>>>>>> the story.
>>>>>> Nancy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 11:37 AM Chanan Mittal <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A further observation, s’il vous plait.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "By what  name should I address you, maiden; for your face is not
>>>>>>> mortal, nor has your voice a human ring to it. Surely you are a goddess?".
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The poet of LA FIGLIA utilizes a remark by Aeneas that underscores
>>>>>>> the divine aspect of the maiden he comes across in his own romantic context
>>>>>>> of Emily Hale to stress the need for transcending the merely human and
>>>>>>> embracing the divine in that relationship. “Weave, weave the sunlight in
>>>>>>> your hair.”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CR
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 9:27 AM Materer, Timothy J. <
>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The epigraph to LA FIGLIA, “O quam te memorem virgo ...” literally
>>>>>>>> translated to “O how shall I remember you virgin” proved prophetic
>>>>>>>> vis-a-vis Emily Hale, in that she became for him an object of memory.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In about an hour, I’ll be discussing this poem with my adult ed
>>>>>>>> class, so a further observation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It’s ok to pun on “memorem,” but the literal word is not “memory.”
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "O quam te memorem  virgo. . . ." It comes from the first book of
>>>>>>>> the Aeneid, where Aeneas's  mother Venus, disguised as a virgin huntress,
>>>>>>>> meets him in the woods at  Carthage and speaks to him. Aeneas answers:
>>>>>>>> "O-quam te memorem, virgo? namque  haud tibi voltus / mortalis, nec vox
>>>>>>>> hominem sonat; o dea certe!" "By what  name should I address you, maiden;
>>>>>>>> for your face is not mortal, nor has your  voice a human ring to it. Surely
>>>>>>>> you are a goddess?". .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> * Some see the poem as a meditation on Aeneas’ parting from Dido,
>>>>>>>> but Gordon and others as his parting from Emily Hale. Timothy Materer
>>>>>>>> English Department, University of Missouri The James Merrill
>>>>>>>> Listserv http://faculty.missouri.edu/materert/Merrill/list.html
>>>>>>>> <http://faculty.missouri.edu/materert/Merrill/list.html> --THIS FICTIVE
>>>>>>>> SPACE WE HERE INHABIT IS / THE STOP TO TIME *
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>