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BTW, a quote which may be OT:

“It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been
searching for evidence which could support this.”

 — Bertrand Russell, ‘Unpopular Essays’

Cheers,
 CR

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 10:00 PM Chanan Mittal <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Apropos of John Angell Grant’s post, both the positive way and the
> negative way evoke poetry. Eliot’s is in consonance with St John of the
> Cross’s “Dark Night of the Soul.” The other, such as John Ashbery’s,
> celebrates the positive way. Both hold their respective sway over readers.
> Some like either, some both.
>
> “Um” by John Ashbery
>
> https://mailchi.mp/theparisreview.org/poem-132781?e=ec9f833e26
>
> Regards,
>  CR
>
> On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 2:55 PM John Angell Grant <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Carol Smith in her book on Eliot’s drama takes note of the despairing
>> view of life that Eliot held, reflected in his interest in the writings of
>> St. John of the Cross.  Smith talks about the two basic paths in
>> Christianity, the negative path and the affirmative path.[1]
>> <#m_-2646027592101233178_m_-4424572563021629078__ftn1>  On the negative
>> path, represented by the writings of 16th-century Spanish priest and
>> poet St. John of the Cross, life is misery.  People are born with original
>> sin, and suffer through their lives with the guilt from that, if (like
>> Eliot) they have any spiritual sensibility.  The only hope for such a
>> Christian is to die and be united with god after the human life ends.
>> Smith, however, also talks about the affirmative path of Christianity,
>> which in the decades around Eliot’s conversion was undergoing a rebirth and
>> revival among Charles Williams, John Heath-Stubbs and other Anglican
>> writers.[2] <#m_-2646027592101233178_m_-4424572563021629078__ftn2>
>> Along this affirmative Christian path, there is a way to salvation through
>> an awareness that all manifestations of life are radiances of god; and that
>> such apprehension is a form of Christian behavior.  According to this view,
>> in acknowledging this affirmative path of Christianity, and in practicing
>> it, and in performing the Christian responsibility of service to others,
>> there is a spirit of joy, rather than a spirit of darkness.[3]
>> <#m_-2646027592101233178_m_-4424572563021629078__ftn3>
>>
>> In assessing these two paths to Christianity, the negative way and the
>> affirmative way, one can see that the negative way is a legacy of the
>> influence of Dark Ages monasticism.[4]
>> <#m_-2646027592101233178_m_-4424572563021629078__ftn4>  By this way of
>> thinking, monasticism arose in the wake of the collapse of the Roman
>> Empire, when old systems, cultures and civilizations were being destroyed.
>> The fear of destruction and loss at this time came to be reflected in the
>> retreating and isolating monastic culture, which was trying to preserve its
>> mere existence in a violent and dangerous world that was collapsing around
>> it.  It was also an attempt to save and preserve the spiritual values of
>> Christianity.  The affirmative way, on the other hand, was the way of love
>> for all creatures, and one more accessible in times of social, political
>> and material comfort, which some experienced post-Renaissance, and in a
>> growing standard of living from an age of industrialization.  By this view,
>> all created things are god’s creations, and joyously to be apprehended as
>> such.  Charles Williams, one Anglican thinker of Eliot’s time, accepted
>> romantic love as a gateway to understanding this kind of love, and cited
>> Dante’s use of the romantic love for Beatrice, converted to a higher
>> Christian love, as one guide for how it might work.[5]
>> <#m_-2646027592101233178_m_-4424572563021629078__ftn5>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> [1] <#m_-2646027592101233178_m_-4424572563021629078__ftnref1> Smith 157.
>>
>> [2] <#m_-2646027592101233178_m_-4424572563021629078__ftnref2> Smith 159.
>>
>> [3] <#m_-2646027592101233178_m_-4424572563021629078__ftnref3> Smith
>> attributes the origin of these ideas of the positive and negative ways to
>> the 6th century C.E .mystical writings of Dionysius the Areopagite.
>> (The documents were later identified as pseudepigrapha, so currently
>> authorship is assigned to Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite.) Smith 157.
>>
>> [4] <#m_-2646027592101233178_m_-4424572563021629078__ftnref4> Wrote John
>> Heath-Stubbs, in his book on Charles Williams, “Monasticism arose as a
>> result of the condition accompanying the breakdown of the Roman Empire.
>> Men withdrew from the world for the sake of the world, in order to salvage,
>> in safe refuges, something of the values which were everywhere being
>> destroyed. “ John Heath-Stubbs, *Charles Williams* (London: Published
>> for the British Council by Longmans, Green, 1955) 17.  Quoted in Smith 159.
>>
>> [5] <#m_-2646027592101233178_m_-4424572563021629078__ftnref5> Smith
>> 160.  See Charles Williams, *The Figure of Beatrice: A Study in Dante*
>> (London: Faber and Faber Limited, 1943.)
>>
>>
>>
>> John Angell Grant
>> www.johnangellgrant.com
>>
>> My new book, "Woman and Religion in the Modern Drawing Room: Plays of
>> T.S. Eliot," is available here:
>>
>> http://www.academicapress.com/node/273
>> Or here:
>>
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/Women-Religion-Modern-Drawing-Room/dp/1680530194/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1486689319&sr=8-2&keywords=john+angell+grant
>>
>> And from libraries here:
>>
>>
>> http://www.worldcat.org/title/women-and-religion-in-the-drawing-room-plays-of-ts-eliot/oclc/961357691&referer=brief_results
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 5:52 AM Chanan Mittal <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> “It is quite natural that if in your consciousness you are always
>>> running round in a circle you will finally end up in hell.
>>>
>>> And that is just what Sartre is after and what Eliot would like to
>>> prevent with obviously ineffective measures.”
>>>
>>> —-
>>>
>>> “I see crowds of people, walking round in a ring.”
>>>
>>> CR
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 6:54 AM Rick Parker <[log in to unmask]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> #CarlJung, Letters Vol. II, Sartre, T.S. Eliot
>>>> Carl Jung on T.S. Elliot and Sartre
>>>>
>>>> To Dr. S.
>>>>
>>>> Dear Colleague, 5 December 1951
>>>>
>>>> Frankly I am surprised at your letting yourself be impressed by T. S.
>>>> Eliot.
>>>>
>>>> Becoming conscious does not in itself lead to hell by any means.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> More at
>>>>
>>>> https://carljungdepthpsychologysite.blog/2019/07/26/carl-jung-on-t-s-elliot-and-sartre/
>>>>
>>>