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Fascinating--and wonderful,
Thanks.
May I quote if I write on that again?
N

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019, 11:00 AM Richard Seddon <[log in to unmask] wrote:

> Nancy don’t make too much over “reference frames”.  Poets do it all the
> time.  It is in the second stanza where the poet clearly invokes Einstein.
>
> Think of reference frames as three dimensioned (actually 4 dimensioned
> when including a clock) places or containers (with rulers and clocks) where
> something happens.  Einstein’s favorites were a moving railroad car and a
> train station.  He had someone in the moving car observing what was
> happening inside the car and someone in the station also observing what was
> happening in the car.  He used this to demonstrate that simultaneous
> observation was a fiction and that the speed of light was unaffected by the
> speed of the railroad car.
>
> MacDiarmid in the very first line has the poet in one place observing a
> lass in clearly another place.  Unlike Einstein who defines his “place”
> quite exactly the poet doesn’t.  The lass is singing to a child that is in
> a another reference frame to her and the poet.
>
> In the second stanza the poet makes clear reference to Einstein’s “General
>  Theory of Relativity.  In writing about the first stanza I was referring
> to Einstein’s use of reference frames in his “Special Theory”.  In the
> second stanza the poet alludes to the “General Theory” when he writes of
> light bending around something and not being reflected by it.   The
> “Special Theory” is concerned with the speed of light as a universe
> constant regardless of the uniform motion of a reference frame.  The
> “General Theory” is concerned with gravity and, by the way, is where
> Einstein corrects Newton.  The Apple didn’t fall quite like Newton
> thought.  The “General Theory” predicts that light will appear to be bent
> as it passes a massive object like a star.  Actually it is space/time
> itself that is bent by the massive object and light follows the bend.
> Light in the poet’s last reference frame is bent by the head of the lass
> who is in another reference frame to the poet.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Feb 18, 2019, at 11:02 PM, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Dear Richard,
>
> Here is the entire poem. I would love it if you explain more about how the
> various reference frames are involved and what MacDiarmid may be
> referencing. (I"m embarrassed that my spelling was off, since I have known
> this poem for decades. AND I even misquoted and did not see it. Alas. But I
> would love more on it.
>
> Empty Vessel by Hugh MacDiarmid
> I met *ayont* the cairney
> A lass wi *tousie* hair
> Singin till a bairnie
> That was nae langer there. beyond
> tangled
>
>
> *Wunds* wi warlds to swing
> Dinna sing sae sweet,
> The licht that bends owre aa thing
> Is less ta’en up wi’it.
>
> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 6:17 PM Richard Seddon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Yes.   MacDiarmid seems to be writing about things in separate reference
>> frames.  Special relativity is all about the relationships of the speed of
>> light in various reference frames.
>>
>> Interestingly, as all know, the speed of light is a constant whatever
>> reference frame is used.  How is this?  Well, time is NOT a constant but
>> varies.  This makes reading Eliot especially interesting.  “Time present
>> and time past”
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Feb 18, 2019, at 3:32 PM, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Richard,
>>
>> Thanks, that was my point. There is no conflict between math and poetry,
>> quite the opposite. If it sounded as if I meant anything other, I didn't
>> write it clearly.
>> Anyway, I'm sure calculus students could coexist beautifully with Eliot.
>>
>> There is a MacDiarmid poem that has a very mysterious ending, and a
>> scientist once wrote to me that he must have recently read Einstein. The
>> last lines are as follows:
>>
>> Wunds wi' worlds to swing
>> Dinnae sing so sweet.
>> The lift that hangs oer a' thing,
>> Is less ta'en up wi'it.
>>
>> That is from memory. But "wunds" is "winds"; 'Dinnae " is "did not";
>> "lift" is the sky; and "ta'en" is "taken."
>>
>> Does that have some resonance you see with science?
>> Nancy
>> P. S. MacDiarmid wrote many late poems he called poems of fact and they
>> have a lot of science. The most magnificent is probably "On a Raised Beach."
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 5:19 PM Richard Seddon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> Nancy
>>>
>>> I have taken plenty of calculus and without it would not be able to
>>> study, or better yet try to learn, quantum field theory.
>>>
>>> I also study poetry.
>>>
>>> As I believe Eliot, or was it Pound, once said and I paraphrase, metrics
>>> are everything.
>>>
>>> Einstein played a decent violin and wrote a book explaining special
>>> relativity using one equation.  That equation uses only algebra.
>>>
>>> Richard Feynman (won the Nobel in 1965 and originated the theory of
>>> quantum electrodynamics) played bongo drums at a near professional level
>>> and linked quantum mechanics to special relativity.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> On Feb 18, 2019, at 1:57 PM, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I would like to think calculus students can also love poetry and
>>> philosophy. And poets can love math and science.
>>> Think of the Metaphysicsls.
>>>
>>> I don't see any reason to see Eliot as more reflective than other poet.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 11:48 AM Chanan Mittal <[log in to unmask] wrote:
>>>
>>>> By calculus students, yes.
>>>>
>>>> CR
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:07 AM Richard Seddon <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Summing infinities done all the time by freshman calculus students.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 18, 2019, at 8:52 AM, Chanan Mittal <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Imagine measuring out the ocean with coffee spoons!
>>>>> Infinitude baffles.
>>>>>
>>>>> “Do I dare / Disturb the universe?”
>>>>>
>>>>>  CR
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 9:03 AM Rickard A. Parker <
>>>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 12:45:40 -0500, Chanan Mittal <[log in to unmask]
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >https://goo.gl/images/cEJnpw
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The caption: "I have measured out my life with coffee spoons"
>>>>>> The picture: The sea
>>>>>> My take:  Eternal life (how else do you fill the sea one coffee spoon
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> a time?)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>    Rick Parker
>>>>>>
>>>>>