I did not ask if missionaries were ever killed: I asked about crucifixion. Nancy On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 10:30 PM, Kate Nichols <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > As to Africa, there were missionaries trying to convert the people there. > > As to The Waste Land, what always struck me is how he depicted the typist > and her "friend" as oh so boring middle class. For certain, the "American > Dream" had little interest for him; in fact, he found it threatening to his > way of thinking. > > If he lived in America today, what would he find, but Jews named Smith and > Christians name Cohen because of a high intermarriage rate, another words, > assimilation. He would find a lot of black people and Hispanic people with > good jobs and their own businesses. And, half, at least, of the American > military consisting of blacks. > > > On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 8:07 PM, Chanan Mittal <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> *Celia’s death in The Cocktail Party * >> >> ELIOT’S FICTION IS DERIVED FROM FACTS. >> >> The circumstances of Celia’s death in The Cocktail Party do correspond to >> certain facts in the history of Christian missions among the aborigines. >> >> 1901 - Missionary James Chalmers was killed and eaten by cannibals in >> Papua New Guinea. >> >> 1943 - According to Time Magazine, five NTM missionaries (New Tribes >> Mission, an evangelical Christian mission) were killed by aboriginal >> Bolivians. >> >> That the non-converts in Eliot’s version resorted to crucify Celia is not >> unimaginable as a mode of punishment. There were their brethren, the >> converts, and the story of Christ would not be unknown. >> >> Where is RACISM in all this? >> >> CR >> >> On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 4:00 PM Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >>> Celia's death is worse than just racist (though it is racist). It is >>> also misogynist and, in the play, totally gratuitous. For her to die as a >>> missionary might well make sense within the terms of the play, but the >>> gruesome scene of an upside-down crucifixion over an ant hill does nothing >>> for the play and is a kind of low horror only matched by the "Love Song of >>> St. Sebastian." >>> >>> And is there any historical evidence for African natives using >>> crucifixion, or is it just a sick imagination? (Serious question) >>> Nancy >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 3:53 PM, Cox, Carrol <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>> >>>> TWL is, I still think, a great and important poem. But any attempt >>>> whatever to defend the despicable racist views it embodies makes it >>>> impossible to grasp its greatness or importance. Many great poems embody >>>> despicable attitudes-- a glaring example is "An Irish Airman Foresees His >>>> death. That poem has to be seen through the lens provided by the last 10 >>>> minutes or so ob All Quiet On The Western Front." The Airma is a >>>> _Terrorist_, and the poem praises individual joy in death and destruction >>>> for the sake of death and destruction. No admirer of Yeats (and I am a >>>> strong admirer) should try to defend the a ttitudes the poem embodies. >>>> >>>> Anyone who defends or excuses Eliot's contempotible racism is >>>> slandering his poems, not praising them. >>>> >>>> Tom & Nancy have it right. Denial of their arguments is contemptible. >>>> >>>> Incidentally, Celias death in The Cocktail Party is also contemptibly >>>> racist. >>>> >>>> I am not criticizeing Eliot's poems. And I love "Irish Airman" -- but >>>> to praise the peoms we have to see them clearly, not through a broken lens >>>> of Eliot-Worship. >>>> >>>> Carrol >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: T. S. Eliot Discussion forum. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On >>>> Behalf Of Tom Gray >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2017 8:21 AM >>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>> Subject: Re: NY Times On Works of Unethical Artists >>>> >>>> In saying that TSE's antisemitism and class prejudice were typical of >>>> his time, I did not mean to minimize them. Here in Canada, Pier 21 in >>>> Halifax Nova Scotia was the centre for European immigration in the first >>>> half of the 20th century. A museum dedicated to this immigration has been >>>> set up there. Associated with the museum is a memorial with inscription >>>> reading "None is too many". This was the reply of a Canadian civil servant >>>> when asked what the acceptable level of Jewish immigration to Canada was. >>>> This was supported by the prime minister of the time and was official >>>> government policy. Nice inoffensive polite typical Canadians held >>>> despicable prejudices. Typical antisemitism of that time was a very ugly >>>> thing and was something that nice respectable educated people professed. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Two rapes are presented in “The Waste Land” – that of the typist and >>>> that of Philomel. The social contexts and implications of these rapes are >>>> strikingly different and to my mind betray a pernicious class prejudice. >>>> Philomel’s rape is presented in “A Game of Chess” in a privileged and >>>> educated context. It is presented as part of a long classical tradition in >>>> a painting in a rich opulent room. Her rape is presented as a horror that >>>> brings on savage revenge and the intervention of the gods. She is >>>> transformed to the nightingale >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The typist's rape in “The Fire Sermon is of quite another sort. It is a >>>> rape that is not resisted and only slightly understood >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> She turns and looks a moment in the glass, >>>> >>>> Hardly aware of her departed lover; >>>> >>>> Her brain allows one half-formed thought to pass: >>>> >>>> “Well now that’s done: and I’m glad it’s over.” >>>> >>>> When lovely woman stoops to folly and >>>> >>>> Paces about her room again, alone, >>>> >>>> She smoothes her hair with automatic hand, >>>> >>>> And puts a record on the gramophone. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Rapes are presented as differing with social class. The rape of the >>>> Philomel in the wealthy educated context is a horror. The rape of the >>>> typist in the working-class environment is not. The class prejudice shown >>>> with the typist and the young man carbuncular manifests itself in a >>>> portrayal of these people having little self-awareness and no sense of >>>> reality beyond the immediate. The same class prejudice can be seen in “A >>>> Game of Chess”. The wealthy characters are shown immersed within a >>>> classical tradition full of allusion. The working-class are presented as >>>> the typist and her rapist as living only in the eternal immediate. I find >>>> it interesting to read “A Waste Land” and interpreting it it based on this >>>> subliminal prejudice which influenced it. The same contrast between >>>> tradition and the eternal immediate based on class can be seen in "A game >>>> of Chess" between the wealthy educated characters and the pub scene >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This class prejudice was typical of the educated elite of the day and >>>> not restricted to Eliot. Bill Bryson’s book “At Home: A Short History of >>>> Private Life”, contains quotations illustrating it. Edna Saint Vincent >>>> Millay wrote: ‘The only people I really hate are servants. They are not >>>> really human beings at all”. Virginia Woolf comes quite close to capturing >>>> Eliot’s portrayal in describing one servant as: “She is in a state of >>>> nature untrained and uneducated … so that one sees a mind wiggling >>>> undressed.” Eliot's class prejudice was typical. It is reflected in the >>>> "the Waste Land" and hinders a valid portrayal of working-class life. In >>>> that, it makes "The Waste Land", the less. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Dear Tom, >>>> >>>> Well, depending on what you mean by "typical," probably yes. >>>> But many artists and intellectuals did not hold anti-Semitic views or >>>> attitudes. The issue is not that some did but that it was clearly >>>> repudiated morally also. >>>> >>>> In the US before the Civil War, it was "typical" of many >>>> ('serious") people--including many religious leaders and their churches--to >>>> support slavery. It was the abolitionists who were not "typical." So are we >>>> now to say it was really quite ok to believe a god made African people >>>> inferior and suited to slavery because that had been inculcated as a >>>> "typical" belief? >>>> >>>> And does the suffering of those who were treated as inferior or >>>> disgusting or even illegal mean those who did not think through the wrong >>>> they perpetuated were to be given a pass. >>>> >>>> Was it, for example, an excuse for the fact that after largely >>>> saving Britain in WWII with the Enigma machine Alan Turing was driven to >>>> his death because homophobia was "typical"? Or that Oscar Wilde was >>>> destroyed by that "typical" belief, even if he made a really great mistake >>>> in going to court. >>>> >>>> Eliot had not the excuse of lacking knowledge, intelligence, or >>>> cultural experience. And given the constant insistence that he had Jewish >>>> friends and colleagues, he had every reason to know better regardless of >>>> common, "typical" attitudes. >>>> >>>> As for class prejudice, was that ever excusable either? Is it >>>> now? Consider the brilliant exposés of its effect in Dickens even. And >>>> whatever Woolf may have also said or supported, it is Septimus, I think, >>>> who gets our sympathy even more than Mrs. Dalloway. And WWI literature is >>>> full of the recognition that it meant nothing in the trenches, and making >>>> ignorant, unprepared young elite men officers did not necessarily work out. >>>> >>>> My point is that Eliot had all this context, as did others of >>>> his circle and class. >>>> Best, >>>> Nancy >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 12:20 PM, Tom Gray < >>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> TSE's description of the typist and the young man >>>> carbuncular displays an extreme class prejudice bordering on contempt. >>>> Wouldn't this be typical of the attitudes of upper class English society in >>>> the early part of the 20th century just as his antisemitism is? >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Nancy Gish < >>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> As one who agrees that Eliot's writing has >>>> anti-Semitic material (one only need read it), I think the way this is >>>> written is a problem. He says "T. S. Eliot out and out hated Jews." I have >>>> not seen evidence of such a total claim. It also makes the statement easy >>>> to reject. >>>> >>>> That is not, by the way, what Anthony Julius >>>> ever claimed either: he claimed that Eliot's writing included anti-Semitic >>>> material (which it does) and that it treated that as normal (which can be >>>> the effect). I wondered at the time how many of those who got outraged >>>> actually read the whole book--which I did.The response is always the same >>>> to any claim of bigotry: "He had Jewish friends and he supported Jewish >>>> writers.) That is also the case but not the point. It's the "a lot of my >>>> best friends are Black" and "I love women" and "I don't care who is gay but >>>> they shouldn't talk about it" response. >>>> >>>> I think most readers who love literature agree >>>> that horrible people wrote some of the best work. But one can separate a >>>> judgment of the work and a judgment of the artist and accept both. >>>> I think, for example, that some of Eliot's most >>>> disturbing images are so powerful because he knew what he was writing about >>>> in his own feelings. >>>> >>>> >>>> Nancy >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 9:35 AM, >>>> [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask] >>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> I know the author. I'm not positive it >>>> is worth asking the basis for his short statement about Eliot. Print and >>>> internet media are filled with unsupported broad and often incoherent >>>> declarations. Witness Lord Donald's tweets. I think this NYT entry is >>>> just identifying an issue, in a casual style that may be more accessible to >>>> readers. >>>> >>>> More importantly, we have a new dog: >>>> Perceval. >>>> >>>> Cheers... >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Nov 15, 2017, at 4:51 AM, Tom Gray < >>>> [log in to unmask] <mailto: >>>> [log in to unmask]> > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Opinion | He’s a Creep, but >>>> Wow, What an Artist! <https://www.nytimes.com/2017/ >>>> 11/14/opinion/artists-assault-fans.html?ribbon-ad-idx=13&rre >>>> f=opinion&module=Ribbon&version=context®ion=Header&action >>>> =click&contentCollection=Opinion&pgtype=article> >>>> >>>> >>>> <https://www.nytimes.com/2017/ >>>> 11/14/opinion/artists-assault-fans.html?ribbon-ad-idx=13&rre >>>> f=opinion&module=Ribbon&version=context®ion=Header&action >>>> =click&contentCollection=Opinion&pgtype=article> >>>> <https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/nyti >>>> mes.png> >>>> Opinion | He’s a Creep, but Wow, What an Artist! >>>> >>>> >>>> Clyde Haberman >>>> >>>> Can we appreciate art even if it was created by someone who behaved >>>> deplorably, like Kevin Spacey or Dustin Hoff... >>>> >>>> >>>> An opinion article from the New >>>> York Times that discusses the issue of how the artistic or intellectual >>>> work of people who violate ethical norms should be addressed. It derives >>>> from the recent sexual harassment revelations and puts them in some sort of >>>> historical context. TSE's antisemitism is noted >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> > > > -- > Karen "Kate" Nichols > Premier Florida Realty of SWFL > C: 239-849-3064 <(239)%20849-3064> > F: 239-463-4826 <(239)%20463-4826> > Search SW Florida homes <http://realtorflorida.listingbook.com/> > > > >