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To resume the initial thread, there was, as well, a midway reconciliation with the loss: 

Because I know that time is always time
And place is always and only place
And what is actual is actual only for one time
And only for one place
I rejoice that things are as they are and
I renounce the blessed face
And renounce the voice
Because I cannot hope to turn again
Consequently I rejoice, having to construct something
Upon which to rejoice


With a sublimation of love into a Beatrice-like figure of divine beauty, 

"wearing / White light folded, sheathing about her, folded" 

or 

"In blue of larkspur, blue of Mary's colour." 

CR 

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 8:43 PM Ken Armstrong <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

My vision of Eliot has never been one of someone "as usual, lost in the rhythms..." etc. "As usual" Rick? Now who's pulling whom's leg? I'm sure rhythms can be seductive, à la E's remarks on succumbing to the influence of Shakespeare, but Mr. Deliberate Goes Unconscious for a Spell? I don't think so. On the other hand, your answer for his "suppression" of St. Narcissus could still be quite right, ie. a poem that he could not bring to the satisfactory completion of its action and abandoned, or, as Guy Brown put it, "selected against."

I'll say for CR's interpretation of his three quotes, he at least presents some unifying threads, that still need support, but certainly exceed statements that amount to nothing more than "No, they're not."

On Carrol's invitation, what to say but been there, done that.

;-)

Ken A



On 2/21/2017 5:40 PM, Richard Seddon wrote:
I am not so sure that he was satisfied with lines 31 to the end.  They jar from the rhythms of the first part.  He loses the rhythm of the first three quarters of the poem.

It is as if he was writing along, and as usual, was lost in the rhythms, with words flowing with the sounds and meter when he lost his muse

I think that TWL may have partially been a recovery of that muse.

I agree totally with the poems initial ego being Augustine.  The initial setting is easily Libya.

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 21, 2017, at 1:55 PM, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

One fascinating fact about "the Death of Saint Narcissus" is the way it changed from the first to the published versions. Originally, he walked in the streets of Carthage. That is a link not only to Augustine and TWL but to a long sequence of references in the poetry to the rise of the Roman Empire.

If anyone is interested, the TSE Annual coming out this month has an article I have done on those references as they appear in TWL and the historical background. I would guess just at this point that for Narcissus the emphasis is on desire and Eliot's horror at that, especially as the images become increasingly disturbed and disturbing until the narrator is an old man who raped a girl.
Nancy

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Richard Seddon: The only thing i see in common among your quotes is Eliot.

======

Someone (Fish?) pointed out that the fact that a text has been interpreted in a given way proves that it _can be_ so interpreted. In other words, no interpretation can be _proved_ false. But as someone once said in a different context, "Everyone has the right to be a damn fool, but X abuses the privilege." If I were to assert that "We should like to know how that was done" referred to an episode of anal intercourse among Moore's 11th-grade classmates, you could not demonstrate that I was wrong, but you could dismiss me as a damn fool.

:--)

Carrol