Exactly where in the poem is this: "to warn the ladies of the sins of pleasure"?Weeping and praying are not necessarily ascetic. The nearest is the line about fasting. But the "Pervigilium," which Eliot added and removed, is about anxiety and fear and shyness--all the characteristics Crawford demonstrates.The line about Lazarus is part of an allusion to "To His Coy Mistress," hardly about ascetic self-control.Were this a much later poem, it would likely be there, and it would be explicit. The ascetic images in early work is more linked to Narcissus and Sebastion, but they are about desires, terrible ones of rape and murder.N>>> Chanan Mittal 08/23/15 2:10 PM >>>
Well, Prufrock weeps and fasts, weeps and prays. He would like to be a Lazarus to warn the ladies of the sins of pleasure. There is an ascetic side to him for sure. He might fail there but he definitely aspires to it.CR
On Sunday, August 23, 2015, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]);" target=_blank>[log in to unmask]> wrote:
It probably is sensual, given the lines before and after about dressing like a Paris dandy.But it is not about asceticism. His discussions of sex then (he was a virgin and not happy about it in any of his letters) were about his desires rising up and his wish that he had gotten rid of his virginity long ago. And the adolescent and vulgar sexuality of his Bolo poems and others reveals a preoccupation with things about which he seems to have fantasized--some of them, as in "The Love Song of St. Sebastion," disturbingly sadistic.At any rate, when he writes of it in letters, as to Aiken, it is about fear and shyness, not asceticism.One of the great contributions of Crawford's "Young Eliot" is to move beyond the notion that the late, constricted Eliot was always there.Nancy>>> Chanan Mittal 08/23/15 12:40 PM >>>
In the context of the poem a sensual delight. The ascetic in him must abjure all temptations of desire.CR
On Sunday, August 23, 2015, Tom Gray <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Peaches also constitute a natural laxative which would also be of concern for an ageing man.
On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
This and many other readings are online. But it is not clear which, if any, apply. There is a website purporting to expose the errors (many) in the "Gradesaver" account of the poem, but it (the ostensible correcting site), unfortunately, creates new ones just as egregious. It says, for example, that it is not accurate to say that "trousers rolled" is a new, bohemian style--though Conrad Aiken said at the time it was. So what it and other sites say is varied and confused.But here are some things about peaches. To "eat a peach" is slang for cunnilingus. I cannot find how old that is. Rick, can you trace it back?In China, where they were first cultivated, peaches are symbols of immortality.Also, "It has special significance in Chinese culture: the peach has mystical attributes, and supposedly brings luck, abundance and protection."Peach pits are poisonous, so biting one might do more than break a tooth (one of the anxieties possibly attributed to Prufrock).But it is not clear that Prufrock is really aging; Eliot was young (22), and he said in an interviews in 1962 that Prufrock was partly himself and partly another, older person. His fear of growing old may not mean he is doing so.Etymological dictionary:
peach (n.) c. 1400 (late 12c. as a surname), from Old French pesche "peach, peach tree" (Old North French peske, Modern French pêche), and directly from Medieval Latin pesca, from Late Latin pessica, variant of persica "peach, peach tree," from Latin malum Persicum, literally "Persian apple," translating Greek Persikon malon, from Persis "Persia" (see Persian).
In ancient Greek Persikos could mean "Persian" or "the peach." The tree is native to China, but reached Europe via Persia. By 1663 William Penn observed peaches in cultivation on American plantations. Meaning "attractive woman" is attested from 1754; that of "good person" is from 1904. Peaches and cream in reference to a type of complexion is from 1901. Peach blossom as a color is from 1702. Georgia has been the Peach State since 1939. [emphasis mine]
(Given the date of "attractive woman," and the metaphor for complexion, the sexual suggestion may be apt.)
>>> "Rickard A. Parker" <[log in to unmask]> 08/22/15 3:18 PM >>>
On Sat, 22 Aug 2015 12:01:42 -0500, Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>"Do I dare to eat a peach?"
>Is "peach" a metaphor or, if not, what in 1910ff made it daring to eat a
Prufrock is aging. He wonders if he should take up new fashions like a new hair style or wearing his trousers cuffed. Or, perhaps more importantly, his teeth are going bad. If he eats a peach he may bite into the pit and lose a tooth or two.