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I think your commentary is right on all points about what works. And Vivienne clearly made the voice more convincing. But I'm not sure how to reconcile it with the statement that the exchange was "pure Ellen Kellond." It is at least possible, is it not, that Kellond herself had picked up some of the Eliot class speech and occasionally hyper-compensated. I doubt it, really, but the note raises some questions about how Eliot did "incorporate" other voices. For example, I find the voices of the Thames daughters poignant, but they do not sound like real women to me. Eliot's women often sound surprisingly like Eliot. So do his male speakers for that matter.
 
Sloppy may "do" the police, but he is still Sloppy.
Nancy

>>> Peter Dillane <[log in to unmask]> 08/10/15 12:05 AM >>>
Hi folks


I feel uncomfortable with the patois of these people being remade by a poet with a personal voice from a different social class. It teeters on the edge of caricature and the notion that the hot gammon had to have its beauty appreciated is close to ridicule or at least that it patronises. So my prejudices are stated. Two things strike me. Firstly Eliot’s early words are on a couple of occasions ungainly because posh e.g. “ It’s that medicine I took in order to bring it off” and Vivienne’s corrections for “medicine” of “stuff” and then “pills” are astute . It’s not completely clear whether she or Pound removes “in order” but it appears to be in her hand. But then Eliot hasn’t used her suggestion unedited himself as he pulls “to have” to give the later “What you get married for if you don’t want (to have) children” making it more sympathetic to the dialect and converting “want” from a modal verb to a transitive one which I suppose has the same meaning but I am not sure yet about that. More interestingly taking up Vivienne’s suggestion and dropping that more drawing room than pub speech “You want to keep him at home I suppose” and replacing it with “What you get married for etc..” changes the end of the exchange from conciliation to challenge. Lil’s interrogating friend is in a more subtle place than just confrontation of course in that she relates the dialogue but also editorialises the pressures on Lil (“She’s had five already..”), but it seems to me a major concession on the part of the author to make that change when for example he does not remove the first occasion that the barman calls time as Vivienne had suggested he should. The change of the lines doesn’t only improve the verisimilitude it changes the dramatic narrative.Eliot taking it up is a big thing I think.

Cheers

Pete

> Thank you for taking time to give me the details Nancy.
>
> I appears to me now more likely than not that the line was one of Viv's creations and not Kellond's.
>
> I'm adding the TWL Facsimilie to my book buying list.
>
> Regards,
> Rick Parker
>
>
> On Sat, 8 Aug 2015 12:02:05 -0400, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Eliot already had a line there. It was "You want to keep him at home, I suppose." Vivienne crossed it out and placed an asterisk next to it. At the bottom of the page she wrote as a footnote "What you get married for if you dont want to have children."
>>
>> Valerie's annotation says "On the verso of this leaf, Vivien Eliot has written in pencil to her husband: 'Make any of these alterations--or none if you prefer. Send me back this copy & let me have it.'"
>>
>> Eliot took out "to have" and added the apostrophe and replaced his line with hers. Hers is a lot better in this case.
>>
>> It seems clear from recent biography that Vivienne did have a real influence on early poems after their marriage and before it all fell apart completely.
>>
>> It is not just a matter of Eliot incorporating another voice--as he did by using Ellen Kellond's recounting of the pub exchange--but of editing in the same manner as Pound.
>>
>> Nancy
>>
>>
>>>>> "Rickard A. Parker" 08/08/15 11:07 AM >>>
>> On Fri, 7 Aug 2015 14:54:35 -0400, Nancy Gish wrote:
>>
>>> This line may be part of a brilliant exchange, but Vivienne wrote it and added it, not TSE: "What you get married for if you don't want children?" (See Facsimile.)
>>>
>>> Whether that matters is an open question.
>>> Nancy
>>
>> After years this thought just came to me: What if Vivien just wrote down a line that was told to the Eliots but was forgotten to be added by TSE? My "Facsimile" has been missing for years so I can't see how this was inserted.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Rick Parker
>>