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I think your commentary is right on all points about what works. And
Vivienne clearly made the voice more convincing. But I'm not sure how to
reconcile it with the statement that the exchange was "pure Ellen
Kellond." It is at least possible, is it not, that Kellond herself had
picked up some of the Eliot class speech and occasionally
hyper-compensated. I doubt it, really, but the note raises some
questions about how Eliot did "incorporate" other voices. For example, I
find the voices of the Thames daughters poignant, but they do not sound
like real women to me. Eliot's women often sound surprisingly like
Eliot. So do his male speakers for that matter.

Sloppy may "do" the police, but he is still Sloppy.
Nancy

>>> Peter Dillane 08/10/15 12:05 AM >>> 
Hi folks 


I feel uncomfortable with the patois of these people being remade by a
poet with a personal voice from a different social class. It teeters on
the edge of caricature and the notion that the hot gammon had to have
its beauty appreciated is close to ridicule or at least that it
patronises. So my prejudices are stated. Two things strike me. Firstly
Eliot’s early words are on a couple of occasions ungainly because posh
e.g. “ It’s that medicine I took in order to bring it off” and
Vivienne’s corrections for “medicine” of “stuff” and then “pills” are
astute . It’s not completely clear whether she or Pound removes “in
order” but it appears to be in her hand. But then Eliot hasn’t used her
suggestion unedited himself as he pulls “to have” to give the later
“What you get married for if you don’t want (to have) children”
making it more sympathetic to the dialect and converting “want” from a
modal verb to a transitive one which I suppose has the same meaning but
I am not sure yet about that. More interestingly taking up Vivienne’s
suggestion and dropping that more drawing room than pub speech “You want
to keep him at home I suppose” and replacing it with “What you get
married for etc..” changes the end of the exchange from conciliation to
challenge. Lil’s interrogating friend is in a more subtle place than
just confrontation of course in that she relates the dialogue but also
editorialises the pressures on Lil (“She’s had five already..”), but it
seems to me a major concession on the part of the author to make that
change when for example he does not remove the first occasion that the
barman calls time as Vivienne had suggested he should. The change of the
lines doesn’t only improve the verisimilitude it changes the dramatic
narrative.Eliot taking it up is a big thing I think. 

Cheers 

Pete 

> Thank you for taking time to give me the details Nancy. 
> 
> I appears to me now more likely than not that the line was one of
Viv's creations and not Kellond's. 
> 
> I'm adding the TWL Facsimilie to my book buying list. 
> 
> Regards, 
> Rick Parker 
> 
> 
> On Sat, 8 Aug 2015 12:02:05 -0400, Nancy Gish wrote: 
> 
>> Eliot already had a line there. It was "You want to keep him at home,
I suppose." Vivienne crossed it out and placed an asterisk next to it.
At the bottom of the page she wrote as a footnote "What you get married
for if you dont want to have children." 
>> 
>> Valerie's annotation says "On the verso of this leaf, Vivien Eliot
has written in pencil to her husband: 'Make any of these alterations--or
none if you prefer. Send me back this copy & let me have it.'" 
>> 
>> Eliot took out "to have" and added the apostrophe and replaced his
line with hers. Hers is a lot better in this case. 
>> 
>> It seems clear from recent biography that Vivienne did have a real
influence on early poems after their marriage and before it all fell
apart completely. 
>> 
>> It is not just a matter of Eliot incorporating another voice--as he
did by using Ellen Kellond's recounting of the pub exchange--but of
editing in the same manner as Pound. 
>> 
>> Nancy 
>> 
>> 
>>>>> "Rickard A. Parker" 08/08/15 11:07 AM >>> 
>> On Fri, 7 Aug 2015 14:54:35 -0400, Nancy Gish wrote: 
>> 
>>> This line may be part of a brilliant exchange, but Vivienne wrote it
and added it, not TSE: "What you get married for if you don't want
children?" (See Facsimile.) 
>>> 
>>> Whether that matters is an open question. 
>>> Nancy 
>> 
>> After years this thought just came to me: What if Vivien just wrote
down a line that was told to the Eliots but was forgotten to be added by
TSE? My "Facsimile" has been missing for years so I can't see how this
was inserted. 
>> 
>> Regards, 
>> Rick Parker 
>>