Probably wouldn't have hurt in this instance to define "freedom": your first post describes what you think it needs to exist, but not really what it is. But I'm pretty sure we'd disagree on that, too, however long in the tooth our views are (why do people think that because they've believed something or thought in a certain way over a longish period of time, their view is somehow therefore authenticated?). What Nancy noted, by the way, is surely important, but doesn't really complicate as much as round out the picture of that time seen, as it were, from this time. In any case, speaking of utopia, I always enjoy your ex cathedra laws. I wouldn't want to build a state or culture on them, but they do stand in high relief to their referents. Ken A On 12/5/2014 2:40 PM, Carrol Cox wrote: > Everything is ALWAYS "more complicated."