Not that I have ever read. It seems to be comic merely that they are
doing so at all. The lines have no indication in either section.

>>> P  04/20/14 12:40 PM >>>
Does the criticism suggest what it is about Michelangelo the women are
supposed to be discussing?

Nancy Gish  wrote:

In the spirit of positivity, I am answering this as a serious response
to a serious question.

No, you do not sense any misandry. And I do not have any problem. If
there is a problem, then, it is not mine.

It would be hard to find any gloss on the line about women coming and
going, over all of Eliot criticism, that does not describe it as mocking
the women. It is seen in the juxtaposition, the doggerel rhythm, the
feminine rhyme. The women have always been considered as representing
pseudo-intellectual and silly chatter. It runs through practically every
book and article on "Prufrock" from the earliest commentaries. It is
simply a standard reading. And the doggerel and feminine rhyme really do
make it a sudden shift in tone to satire.

CR reads Eliot as a kind of Christian scripture; any suggestion that TWL
is not permeated with and ending with a kind of glorious renewal seems
to evoke a long series of posts on its representation of transcendence.

So when woman in the Guardian says otherwise, he simply quotes that
mockery of female pretension at understanding anything. 

That is to re-enact the mockery. And it is one of the Eliot lines that
is also overtly mocking women. And, in fact, that is not an isolated
event. He has often made comments that are offensive about women--few
recently but this is not new.

So I repeat that I find it offensive.
P. S. I did not learn anything from you, nor do I find anything positive
to learn in CR's quotations. Why would you imagine such a source?

>>> P  04/20/14 5:07 AM >>>
Do I sense some misandry here?
I may not be so good at positivity but it seems to me that CR is. If you
learned negativity from me, why not learn from him. Besides I did my
best to stop being negative quite some time ago. It was having too
negative an effect on me. You used to talk about not getting personal.
CR cites a tired old line from Prufrock which is a satire on E.M.
Forster's hinting that women had to go to Florence's David to get their
sex education and you jump down his throat. What's your problem?

Nancy Gish  wrote:

I'm sure you have a copy of the poems. Who is stopping you? And who
created the "negativity"?

>>> P  04/19/14 6:02 PM >>>
I would rather read Eliot than all this negativity.
Peter M.

Nancy Gish  wrote:

The time of the coupling iof man and woman
And tht of beasts. Feet rising ahd falling.
Eating and drinking. Dung and death.

If you do not see the rest of this and its associations, perhaps this
constant retyping what everyone on the list has read is even more
pointless than I thought.

Your misogynistic remarks are offensive, and I resent them.

I'm sure your crew will now find a need to add to them and address them
to me, but that is too common to mean anything. 

What I find a concern is that no one else on the list seems willing to
care or to address them. And perhaps none have noticed that I am the
only woman who remains on it in any ongoing way, though I'm glad to see
Kate back, if infrequently.

>>> Chanan Mittal  04/19/14 10:55 AM >>>
"the association of man and woman
In daunsinge, signifying matrimonie˜
A dignified and commodious sacrament.
Two and two, necessarye coniunction,
Holding eche other by the hand or the arm
Whiche betokeneth concorde"


On Saturday, April 19, 2014, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Do you think you might keep your misogyny to yourself? Or is it
important to note that Eliot shared it? 

>>> Chanan Mittal  04/19/14 9:44 AM >>>
"In the room the women come and go / Talking of Michelangelo."


On Saturday, April 19, 2014, Rickard A. Parker <[log in to unmask]>
I don't think I would have bothered to point outtouches on a few recent TSE list topics.

The poem draws on and shatters into pieces the polite culture of Eliot's
cultivated youth – bits of Arthurian lore, echoes of Shakespeare and
Goldsmith and Ovid – as well as less conventionally acceptable
literature –
a line from Baudelaire here, of de Nerval there. It draws on
Christianity –
the agony in the garden, the unrecognisable companion on the road to
the allusions to St Augustine in spiritual crisis – and Buddhism, with
three-fold commands of the thunder in the last section. Yet, at best, it
offers little consolation; after the seeming resolution of the commands
the thunder's precepts, it bursts out in anguish again with a line from
Kyd's The Spanish Tragedy – "Hieronymo's mad againe" (Eliot will have
that Kyd was a notorious atheist, one of Marlowe's School of Night). The
thunder repeats, but the call to peace at the end – "Shantih, shantih,
shantih" – is perhaps the peace of exhaustion rather than acceptance.
is presenting a diagnosis of his, and our, sickness, but he is not yet
of the prescription – which is why, perhaps, The Waste Land is so great
a poem.


TS Eliot's The Waste Land: the radical text of a wounded culture

The poem draws on draws on the Christianity of Eliot's polite and
youth – yet at best offers little consolation

Roz Kaveney, Thursday 17 April 2014