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Nancy

Agreed.  But, doesn't the relentless pursuit of homosexuality in the poem also contribute an unnecessary complication?  My posts are in response to just that.


Richard Seddon
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On Oct 3, 2013, at 2:31 AM, tcolket <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> He says, "I Tiresias... throbbing between TWO lives ... have foresuffered all"  What makes you say this must refer to only what happened to Tiresias when he was a wonan? 
> 
> 
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Chokh Raj <[log in to unmask]> 
> Date: 10/02/2013 10:13 PM (GMT-05:00) 
> To: [log in to unmask] 
> Subject: Re: Tiresias 
> 
> 
> In the typist passage, Tiresias is only alluding to what he foresuffered as a woman.
> 
> CR
> 
> From: tcolket <[log in to unmask]>; 
> To: <[log in to unmask]>; 
> Subject: Re: Tiresias 
> Sent: Thu, Oct 3, 2013 1:26:51 AM 
> 
> The key thing about Tiresias is not that he is old; it&apos;s that he has life experiences from both a male and female perspective. I do not think it is absurd to think that such a figure from mythology could serve as a symbol for a homosexual, given what a forbidden topic this was in 1922. 
> 
> I&apos;m not saying that Tiresias is a homosexual; but that&apos;s why I think he&apos;s in this section of the poem that deals with a rape (which I&apos;ve already discussed is a passage that I think is a disguised description of the homosexual rape of the narrator).
> 
> 
> 
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Richard Seddon <[log in to unmask]> 
> Date: 10/02/2013 9:17 PM (GMT-05:00) 
> To: [log in to unmask] 
> Subject: Re: Tiresias 
> 
> 
> Tom
> 
> Why?
> 
> Old men typically have sagging breasts.
> 
> My comment was intended to point that out.
> 
> I see this passage as merely a graphic depiction of an old man&apos;s chest.
> 
> Some can find a gay allusion in virtually any line of TWL.  I think using this phrase in that manner stretches that sort of reasoning to an absurdity.
> 
> My question then is,  why make this any more complicated than it already is.  Tiresias was an old man whose chest sagged.  He probably had bow legs, a bald head and arthritic fingers;  poor eyesight and  walked in a sort of shuffle.
> 
> Richard Seddon
> [log in to unmask]
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 2, 2013, at 6:50 PM, tcolket <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
>> You may want to consider that the phrase "old man with wrinkled female breasts," that is, a male with some female attributes, could be a safe way, in 1922, of alluding to a male homosexual.
>> 
>> -Tom-
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> 
>> Date: 10/02/2013 1:04 PM (GMT-05:00) 
>> To: [log in to unmask] 
>> Subject: Re: Tiresias 
>> 
>> 
>> In the Sophocles texts, he has become, again, a man who has been a woman. In Eliot he seems clearly to remain both. That is part, I think, of the way he responds to the coupling of the two. He is, ironically, both and neither in that text.
>> Nancy
>> 
>> >>> Richard Seddon <[log in to unmask]> 10/02/13 12:02 PM >>> 
>> I don&apos;t know about you Carroll but when I look at my 71 year old chest, which used to be hard and flat, I see what looks disturbing like sagging a cups were it not for the gray hair. 
>> 
>> And, I assure you I have not had a sex change nor even contemplated it. 
>> 
>> Carroll wrote: " The phrase "old man with wrinkled female dugs" seems discordant as well" 
>> 
>> Richard Seddon 
>> [log in to unmask] 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 2, 2013, at 7:57 AM, Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask]> wrote: 
>> 
>> > How much of the legend of Tiresias is incorporated in TWL? He/she got into 
>> > trouble originally by striking two copulating snakes. But his/her real 
>> > downfall occurred by resolving a debate between Zeus & Hera; he sided with 
>> > Zeus, declaring that women had far more sexual pleasure than men. That seems 
>> > not to fit the case of the typist. He &apos;sides&apos; with Antigone against Creon in 
>> > that play. 
>> > 
>> > The phrase "old man with wrinkled female dugs" seems discordant as well. 
>> > The sex changes were arranged by deity after all, & should not have been 
>> > ambiguous. 
>> > Carrol 
>> >
>