Dear Richard,
The fundamental difference is that most old men did not spend 7 years as a woman before being turned back into a man. That  is why the Tiresias of Sophocles knows and has been both.
I think pointing to literal old men is the unnecessary complication here: it adds a generalized physiological trait--clearly not always true--to a character whose duality as male/female is what distinguishes him in all the stories about him. It is precisely this well-known fact about Tiresias that makes him significant.

>>> Richard Seddon <[log in to unmask]>10/02/13 9:18 PM >>>


Old men typically have sagging breasts.

My comment was intended to point that out.

I see this passage as merely a graphic depiction of an old man's chest.

Some can find a gay allusion in virtually any line of TWL.  I think using this phrase in that manner stretches that sort of reasoning to an absurdity.

My question then is,  why make this any more complicated than it already is.  Tiresias was an old man whose chest sagged.  He probably had bow legs, a bald head and arthritic fingers;  poor eyesight and  walked in a sort of shuffle.

Richard Seddon
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On Oct 2, 2013, at 6:50 PM, tcolket <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

You may want to consider that the phrase "old man with wrinkled female breasts," that is, a male with some female attributes, could be a safe way, in 1922, of alluding to a male homosexual.


-------- Original message --------
From: Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]>
Date: 10/02/2013 1:04 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Tiresias

In the Sophocles texts, he has become, again, a man who has been a woman. In Eliot he seems clearly to remain both. That is part, I think, of the way he responds to the coupling of the two. He is, ironically, both and neither in that text.

>>> Richard Seddon <[log in to unmask]> 10/02/13 12:02 PM >>>
I don't know about you Carroll but when I look at my 71 year old chest, which used to be hard and flat, I see what looks disturbing like sagging a cups were it not for the gray hair.

And, I assure you I have not had a sex change nor even contemplated it.

Carroll wrote: " The phrase "old man with wrinkled female dugs" seems discordant as well"

Richard Seddon
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On Oct 2, 2013, at 7:57 AM, Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> How much of the legend of Tiresias is incorporated in TWL? He/she got into
> trouble originally by striking two copulating snakes. But his/her real
> downfall occurred by resolving a debate between Zeus & Hera; he sided with
> Zeus, declaring that women had far more sexual pleasure than men. That seems
> not to fit the case of the typist. He 'sides' with Antigone against Creon in
> that play.
> The phrase "old man with wrinkled female dugs" seems discordant as well.
> The sex changes were arranged by deity after all, & should not have been
> ambiguous.
> Carrol