If you simply mean that it is about a gay place and a gay proposition, this is an outrageous piece of bigotry and gratuitous self-righteousness. Many of my dearest friends are both gay and deeply moral. This list should not be a place for such mean speech, and I hope others will affirm the moral uprightness of many who are not only gay, but in the 1920s may have had no other way to meet or know one another. The poem does not represent it as a place of rape. In fact, in the facsimile, it is associated with the Tower, where torture and death took place.
 
I hope you meant something else not apparent from your comment.
Nancy

>>> Chokh Raj <[log in to unmask]> 10/3/2013 1:24 PM >>>
To any morally upright person it is bound to be so.
One might dread it as hell.
CR



From: tcolket <[log in to unmask]>;
To: <[log in to unmask]>;
Subject: Re: Tiresias
Sent: Thu, Oct 3, 2013 4:51:25 PM

CR: What makes Cannon Street ghastly?


-------- Original message --------
From: Chokh Raj <[log in to unmask]>
Date: 10/03/2013 12:45 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Tiresias


Presume what you will, Tom. To me the passages in question are imaginative constructs rather than an expression of some actual experience.

CR


From: tcolket <[log in to unmask]>;
To: <[log in to unmask]>;
Subject: Re: Tiresias
Sent: Thu, Oct 3, 2013 4:28:09 PM

In more detail during my lunch break:
1) Eugenides proposes meeting at Cannon Street hotel and the Metropole, a &apos;code&apos; for a gay liason. This reference to Cannon Street opens the &apos;frame&apos;.

2) Tiresias appears as "man with female brrasts", that is, a male with some female attributes, a veiled reference to homosexuality.

3) Tiresias watches a rape and notes that he too has "foresuffered ALL"

4) Narrator runs away from the "ghastly hill on Cannon Street" (facsimile edition), thereby completing the poetic &apos;frame&apos; delineated by the two references to Cannon Street.

5) Why is the Cannon Street hotel now ghastly? Implication: Narrator, as represented by Tiresias, was also raped. Rapist was Eugenides, that is, it was a homosexual rape.



-------- Original message --------
From: tcolket <[log in to unmask]>
Date: 10/03/2013 11:11 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Tiresias


Through the Eugenides passages that bookend the typist passage (see the two Cannon street hotel lines, the second line is from the facsimile edition)


-------- Original message --------
From: Chokh Raj <[log in to unmask]>
Date: 10/03/2013 10:49 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Tiresias


Then what? How do you connect it with homosexuality?

CR


From: tcolket <[log in to unmask]>;
To: <[log in to unmask]>;
Subject: Re: Tiresias
Sent: Thu, Oct 3, 2013 8:31:44 AM

He says, "I Tiresias... throbbing between TWO lives ... have foresuffered all" What makes you say this must refer to only what happened to Tiresias when he was a wonan?


-------- Original message --------
From: Chokh Raj <[log in to unmask]>
Date: 10/02/2013 10:13 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Tiresias


In the typist passage, Tiresias is only alluding to what he foresuffered as a woman.

CR


From: tcolket <[log in to unmask]>;
To: <[log in to unmask]>;
Subject: Re: Tiresias
Sent: Thu, Oct 3, 2013 1:26:51 AM

The key thing about Tiresias is not that he is old; it&apos;s that he has life experiences from both a male and female perspective. I do not think it is absurd to think that such a figure from mythology could serve as a symbol for a homosexual, given what a forbidden topic this was in 1922.

I&apos;m not saying that Tiresias is a homosexual; but that&apos;s why I think he&apos;s in this section of the poem that deals with a rape (which I&apos;ve already discussed is a passage that I think is a disguised description of the homosexual rape of the narrator).



-------- Original message --------
From: Richard Seddon <[log in to unmask]>
Date: 10/02/2013 9:17 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Tiresias


Tom

Why?

Old men typically have sagging breasts.

My comment was intended to point that out.

I see this passage as merely a graphic depiction of an old man&apos;s chest.

Some can find a gay allusion in virtually any line of TWL. I think using this phrase in that manner stretches that sort of reasoning to an absurdity.

My question then is, why make this any more complicated than it already is. Tiresias was an old man whose chest sagged. He probably had bow legs, a bald head and arthritic fingers; poor eyesight and walked in a sort of shuffle.

Richard Seddon



On Oct 2, 2013, at 6:50 PM, tcolket <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

You may want to consider that the phrase "old man with wrinkled female breasts," that is, a male with some female attributes, could be a safe way, in 1922, of alluding to a male homosexual.

-Tom-




-------- Original message --------
From: Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]>
Date: 10/02/2013 1:04 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Tiresias


In the Sophocles texts, he has become, again, a man who has been a woman. In Eliot he seems clearly to remain both. That is part, I think, of the way he responds to the coupling of the two. He is, ironically, both and neither in that text.
Nancy

>>> Richard Seddon <[log in to unmask]> 10/02/13 12:02 PM >>>
I don&apos;t know about you Carroll but when I look at my 71 year old chest, which used to be hard and flat, I see what looks disturbing like sagging a cups were it not for the gray hair.

And, I assure you I have not had a sex change nor even contemplated it.

Carroll wrote: " The phrase "old man with wrinkled female dugs" seems discordant as well"

Richard Seddon
[log in to unmask]



On Oct 2, 2013, at 7:57 AM, Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> How much of the legend of Tiresias is incorporated in TWL? He/she got into
> trouble originally by striking two copulating snakes. But his/her real
> downfall occurred by resolving a debate between Zeus & Hera; he sided with
> Zeus, declaring that women had far more sexual pleasure than men. That seems
> not to fit the case of the typist. He &apos;sides&apos; with Antigone against Creon in
> that play.
>
> The phrase "old man with wrinkled female dugs" seems discordant as well.
> The sex changes were arranged by deity after all, & should not have been
> ambiguous.
> Carrol
>