If I may toss in something tangential here, from one of my other lives  --  a quote from John Maynard Keynes, from an essay he published after the General Theory:  "We know we do not know."

Seems apt for all fields and all levels of achievement within each.

Eugene Schlanger

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 18, 2013, at 10:55 PM, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Of course sometimes it fails and sometimes people get degrees whose credentials are questionable. Can you name any human process of any kind that is totally foolproof? And it also depends where. But "worshipped" is not a valid term. No one "worships" it, and its significance varies. A vanity press or a friend's magazine would not get you any degree with a serious evaluation. I don't know the circumstances, but this sweeping generalization with biased terms like "worshipped" is not a critique of publication. The questions are "published by whom, where, with what reviews and editorial practice?" And the fact that any process can fail does not entail the conclusion that it is meaningless any more than it means it is an absolute guarantee of anything.
But the total lack of any editing or review can guarantee that a text is not necessarily a source: it may or may not be, and it is as likely not to be as to be.
The most intensive editing I ever had required six levels of review plus an exacting copyeditor. Blogs with no review on the internet are simply not the same. It would be extremely easy if it were.
So no one is claiming absolutes in anything in this life, let alone critical writings, but it is not even slightly logical to conclude that it is therefore pointless. That is just an obvious non sequitur.

>>> P <[log in to unmask]>02/18/13 7:59 PM >>>
It resulted in the prof. getting his degree. Publication is worshipped in some circles. I haven't gone into all the damage done by that prof. I can think of some situations where peer review has failed. Publication in itself is no guarantee of anything.
P. M.

Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Nothing is absolute, but there is a huge difference between sending anything one likes into the web and having to get past editors and readers. If it kept being rejected (as in not once or so), there were probably reasons, and what you describe is really a vanity publication, not one that has gone through all the process of editing, and any serious scholar would question it. If editing is done at all well, it catches just this sort of thing.

>>> P <[log in to unmask]>02/18/13 6:41 PM >>>
I could well believe equal amounts of garbage make it into libraries. There is just no way of checking on it like there is on the web. I had a prof once whose PhD on US lit kept getting rejected, so he had it published in a friend's lit. mag. chapter by chapter and got it accepted that way. Publication is no guaranty of anything either. The world is s sand pile for scam artistes.

Eugene Schlanger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Interesting string here.  Interesting too how much nonsense permeates across the web.  Adam Kirsch in an essay today in The New Republic about the state of the essay suggests that many essayists are incapable of anything but autobiographical writing and its attendant self-idolatry and self-purpose.  All of which may also suggest that it is wiser to concentrate on the "public" poems produced by a "public" poet such as Eliot and leave the early poems (and perhaps even the details of the early life) to those in need of a theme (not topic) for some immature undergraduate writing assignment or for those promoting themselves as thoughtful by quoting drivel such as this on the web.
Eugene Schlanger
-----Original Message-----
From: Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]>
To: TSE <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Mon, Feb 18, 2013 3:36 pm
Subject: TYPO--- 'Departure and Arrival' by TS Eliot ???

Sorry, the next to last line of my comment should obviously say "cannot."

>>> Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask]> 02/18/13 3:14 PM >>>
The lines are hardly worthy of including even in _The Stuffed Owl_ (an
anthology of bad verse). It reminds one of The Sweet Singer of Michigan. Bad
lines from Dryden or Wordsworth at least show a distant acquaintance with
the cadences of English.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: T. S. Eliot Discussion forum. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf Of Nancy Gish
> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:47 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: 'Departure and Arrival' by TS Eliot ???
> This is what is on www.blurtit., whoever or whatever that is. It is
difficult to
> imagine anything less accurate or more cliched and silly. No one is listed
> having established the authorship or having checked that it is only the
> stanza and then what Ken calls "stripling graduation poem." It is
> unhelpful to spread this stuff unless one can establish that Eliot
> wrote all the rest of that extremely adolescent poem and can show where it
> appears in any of his writing.
> This is why just assuming anything on the web is information, let alone
> understanding, can be accepted.
> Can anyone find the rest? One can only hope not.
> Nancy
> "Departure and Arrival" is one of the Eliot's early poems. It is a
> of idealism and optimism. It inspires us to accept the most difficult
> of life. Eliot urges us to set high goals before us and then strive
fearlessly to
> achieve them. We must plan to reach our destination. Departure is a must
> for a final arrival. The struggle to make this world a better place
according to
> our vision is a self-rewarding virtue. To work for the welfare of others
is a
> noble but difficult mission.
> >>> Chokh Raj 02/18/13 9:36 AM >>>
> You'll kindly excuse me but I must share this link as well:
> http://www.blurtit.com/q979418.html
> CR
> ________________________________
> Chokh Raj <[log in to unmask]>:
> BTW,
> Here're some poetic pages on DEPARTURES that set out with the
> opening stanza of the poem ascribed to Eliot.
> http://www.gilesswayne.com/images/home/departures-booklet.pdf
> CR
> ________________________________
> Chokh Raj <[log in to unmask]> wrote Mon, Feb 18, 2013 1:50:17 PM:
> Here's a poem said to be written by Eliot titled 'Departure and Arrival'.
> I'm copying it out from the following link:
> http://www.paklinks.com/gs/images-central/66393-for-all-my-friends-out-
> there.html
> There are other links at Google that mention this poem but don't provide
> text.
> Could someone guide me to an authentic source where I could find this
> poem?
> Departure and Arrival
> T.S. Eliot
> Standing upon the shores of all we know
> We linger for a moment doubtfully,
> Then with a song upon our lips, sail we
> Across the harbor bar -- no chart to show
> No light to warn of rocks which lie below,
> But let us put forth courageously.
> Although the path be tortuous and slow,
> Although it bristles with a thousand fears,
> To hopeful eye of youth it still appears
> A lane by which the rose and hawthorn grow
> We hope it may be, would that we might know
> Would we might look into the future years.
> Great duties call--the twentieth century
> More grandly dowered than those which came before,
> Summons -- who knows what time may hold in store,
> Or what great deed the distant years may see,
> What conquest over pain and misery,
> What heroes greater than were ever of yore.
> But if this century is to be more great
> Than those before, her sons must make her so
> And we are of her sons, and we must go
> With eager hearts to help mould well her fate,
> And see that she shall gain such proud estate
> And shall on future centuries bestow.
> A legacy of benefits -- may we
> In future years be found with those who try
> To labour for the good until they die,
> And ask no other question than to know
> That they have helped the cause of victory,
> That with their aid the flag is raised so high.
> Sometime in distant years when we are grown
> Gray-haired and old, whatever be our lot,
> We shall desire to see again the spot
> Which, whatever we have been or done
> Or to what distant lands we may have gone,
> Through all the years will never have been forgot.
> -----
> CR
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