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Well, it depends what is meant by "encouraging." I encourage everyone to
read more poetry and more great literature of all kinds. That does not
mean that it is encouraging to validate any statement, however
unfounded. To do the latter is to lack respect for all those readers by
treating them as unable to make distinctions and as expecting that
anything anyone says is helpful or useful. I do not consider that either
compassion or kindness, and I do not get the point of "incestuous" at
all. There are so many Eliot scholars, it is difficult to find much of
anything on which they agree in all ways except the importance of Eliot.
We aren't in any danger of creating a small coterie who arbitrate. 

One of the greatest pleasures of teaching is that my students, precisely
because they come to poetry fresh, often see wonderful things I have
not. But they are being taught to think about how those perceptions fit
or do not into a reading and what that does for how we think about a
text. They are not just randomly tossing out anything they imagine.

Whether Eliot was the major reason for 20th C interest in Dante or not
is a historical question, one to be tested by historical evidence; it is
not simply a personal opinion. And it is not even about original
scholarship at all. As I noted, there are many books on Dante before
that, so one would only need to read some, a form of research assumed at
any level of study or reading before making pronouncements.

So as stated, I don't buy that. 

According to Dominic Manganiello, when Eliot received the Dante gold
medal in 1959, the Italian ambassador commended him "for restoring Dante
to our contemporary consciousness and to the European tradition." He
also notes that in the 19th C both Shelley and Matthew Arnold wrote on
Dante: according to Shelley, Dante had displayed "the most glorious
imagination of modern poetry." He also points out, being a serious
author, that "He [Eliot] has ruffled Dante scholars, who point out the
limitations of his criticism, while others testify that his contribution
to Dante studies surpasses that of Coleridge, Longfellow, and
Norton"--in other words, Eliot's role is debated. And Manganiello also
notes that Eliot "himself acknowledged in the Clark lectures [that one
idea] derives from Santayana" and that "Santayana was one critic in the
unbroken line of Dante scholarship at Harvard University." Those claims
are part of a major book (T.S.Eliot and Dante, Macmillan, 1989) and one
by an admirer but a very knowledgeable one, so readers here can follow
up if they like. But its based in research, not just remarks. 

There is no way offering such information is "incestuous" (whatever the
sexual metaphor means); it is respecting the judgment of readers to
consider alternatives and evidence. 
Nancy


>>> P 01/07/13 4:20 PM >>> 
I'll buy that. 
P. M. 

"[log in to unmask]" wrote: 

>I understand what Carrol is saying and I understand what Nancy has said
about scholarship and, in my professional life, I live in a world where
I often ask someone what is the basis for a statement he or she has just
made; yet, I think encouraging everyone who reads poetry such as Eliot
or Milton or Dante is something worth doing even if their opinions or
pronouncements do not rise to the level of original scholarship. 
> 
>The alternative is incestuous. 
> 
>Eugene Schlanger 
> 
>Sent from my iPhone 
> 
>On Jan 6, 2013, at 1:05 PM, Carrol Cox wrote: 
> 
>> I meant my note as a footnote to yours. The book I was referring to
is _Dante & Philosophy_ by Etienne Gilson. He 'takes off' from a book by
a Domincan who spins a huge web on a very little peg, as do p & cr on
this list. Probably the footnotes to Dorothy Sayers's translation are a
fine source of knowledge of Dante by those not Dante scholars. (She does
slip-- e.g., in her notes to Paradise 2 she confuses Dante's emphasis on
sense perception with positivist science.) 
>> 
>> You are fighting a hopeless battle with those who confuse texts
informed by Christian bethe difference between writing a poem and sitting in a pew. 
>> 
>> Carrol 
>> 
>>> -----Original Message----- 
>>> From: T. S. Eliot Discussion forum. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On 
>>> Behalf Of Nancy Gish 
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2013 7:48 PM 
>>> To: [log in to unmask] 
>>> Subject: Re: Dantean Aesthetics in 'The Waste Land' 
>>> 
>>> I could ask the same question of you. How do you know it was just
Eliot's 
>>> interest and not that Eliot also took up an interest others had
expressed. It 
>>> would take research to find out. Anyway, as of today, I think
"popular" may 
>>> not apply. For both, it is largely academics, students, and serious
readers 
>>> who really care about either. (Except in Italy I think, where people
know 
>>> about Dante and even know Dante--but that is not based on any
statistics, 
>>> just anecdote.) 
>>> 
>>> We know that Eliot always was attracted to Dante and carried Dante
or Virgil 
>>> around with him all the time. And he wrote first about Dante in
1920. But he 
>>> was introduced early and others, like Pound, also were seriously
interested in 
>>> Dante. I would be interested in knowing just when and how Eliot took
up the 
>>> idea of writing about Dante--and not being the first. When young, by
his own 
>>> account, he preferred the "world" of Virgil. But I have the major
book here by 
>>> an Italian scholar on Eliot and Dante, so I'll see what that tells
me. 
>>> 
>>> Random ideas without research tell us nothing of value. So do you
know? 
>>> And how? A history of Dante reception would seem to be the only real

>>> source that could tell us. 
>>> 
>>> N 
>>>>>> P 01/05/13 8:16 PM >>> 
>>> Not all things are measured by books. 
>>> What would the popular awareness of Dante and the academic interest
in 
>>> him be without TWL? 
>>> P. M. 
>>> 
>>> Nancy Gish wrote: 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Not likely: here are only three of many books on Dante in the early
20th 
>>> century published before Eliot's essays. There are more and easy to
find in 
>>> Google. 
>>> N 
>>> 
>>> The Poetry of Dante >>> of-dante> 
>>> 
>>> Contributors: 
>>> 
>>> Benedetto Croce 
>>> >>> ords> 
>>> Douglas Ainslie 
>>> >>> rds> 
>>> 
>>> Publisher: 
>>> Henry Holt and Company 
>>> >>> %20Company!AllWords> 1922 
>>> Subjects: 
>>> Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321--Criticism and Interpretation 
>>> >>> 01265-1321--Criticism%20and%20Interpretation!AllWords> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Read now 
>>> ...pres-ence of God. It has been said of Dante"Paradiso," that it
should not 
>>> have...expressive ofaspiration for I know not what of divine and
in­tangible, 
>>> a saying which...fear andhope, of distress and joy. But Dante, when 
>>> hecomposed the "Divine Comedy," was not inthis narrow condition
of... 
>>> 18. 
>>> Dante, How to Know Him >>> how-to-know-him> 
>>> 
>>> Contributors: 
>>> 
>>> Alfred M. Brooks 
>>> >>> llWords> 
>>> 
>>> Publisher: 
>>> Bobbs-Merrill 
>>> >>> Merrill!AllWords> 1916 
>>> Subjects: 
>>> Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321--Criticism and Interpretation 
>>> >>> 01265-1321--Criticism%20and%20Interpretation!AllWords> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Read now >>> him> 
>>> ...forever. This, in brief, is the system onwhich Dante represents
God as 
>>> dealing with man­kind...well as the greatest.TWO WAYS OF READING THE

>>> DIVINE COMEDYIn The Divine Comedy Dante relates an imagina­tive 
>>> experience, but... 
>>> 19. 
>>> Dante & Aquinas 
>>> 
>>> Contributors: 
>>> 
>>> Philip H. Wicksteed 
>>> >>> !AllWords> 
>>> 
>>> Publisher: 
>>> J. M. Dent & Sons 
>>> >>> 20%20Sons!AllWords> 1913 
>>> Subjects: 
>>> Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321 
>>> >>> 01265-1321!AllWords> 
>>> Thomas, Aquinas, Saint, 1225?-1274 
>>> >>> %2C%20Saint%2C%201225%3F-1274!AllWords> 
>>> Philosophy, Medieval 
>>> >>> val!AllWords> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Read now 
>>> ...particularcase it is), more happy than in Dante's treatmentof
what he 
>>> regards as the...namely, of the humanwill.Aquinas and Dante are
equally 
>>> emphatic in theiri>>> mind in which Dante dwells upon this 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>>> P 01/04/13 10:24 PM >>> 
>>> Could it be said that Eliot, Virgil-like, led Dante into the 20th
Century? 
>>> P. M. 
>>> 
>>> Chokh Raj wrote: 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The Poet in Transformation: Dantean Aesthetics in T.S. Eliot's The
Waste 
>>> Land (2012) 
>>> 
>>> By Jamie Berlin 
>>> 
>>> Abstract 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Dante was a seminal influence in T. S. Eliot’s poetry. Many scholars
have 
>>> acknowledged Eliot’s professed debt to Dante and have examined
Eliot’s 
>>> explicit imitations of Dante; however, few have pinpointed Dantean 
>>> influences in non-explicit references to Dante, and few have
credited the 
>>> influence of a Dantean progress narrative across Eliot’s poem The
Waste 
>>> Land. This thesis broadly analyzes the principles of Dante’s
aesthetic in the 
>>> poem while analyzing the Sibyl, the Hanged Man, and the Prajapati
parable 
>>> for their relevance to Eliot’s aesthetic theory. When Dantean
aesthetics and 
>>> close readings of The Waste Land are compared with Eliot’s
contemporary 
>>> essays on art, a fuller view of the aspects of Dante’s fundamental
influence 
>>> emerges. In particular, the prominence of Dante in the sub-text of
Eliot’s The 
>>> Waste Land reveals the nature of their shared aesthetic—that art is
a moral 
>>> work by virtue of a spiritual transformation endured by the artist,
which 
>>> involves both a sacrifice of self and a substantiation of self. A
deeper 
>>> examination of Dante’s influence on T. S. Eliot yields a vaster
understanding 
>>> of Eliot’s aesthetics while helping to elucidate one of the central
mysteries in 
>>> Eliot’s theory of art, the role of “personality.” 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>
http://commons.emich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1794&context=these 
>>> s 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> CR 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> CR