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The battles at the Mongolian border took place in 1939.The eastern forces were brought west to address the siege of Stalingrad in 1942. The Japanese did not further the attempt of some elements in the army in Japan to seize areas of Siberia for resources because of non-aggression pact between Stalin and Hitler in 1939. In 1939, with the assurances of no war from Germany Stalin would have been able to bring all Red Army forces east to deal with any Japanese incursion and so the Japanese did not pursue their war. However ,even with the Russians nearing defeat in the west, the Japanese decided not to invade the Soviet Union and so the forces of Marshal Zhukov could be brought west to relieve the siege of Stalingrad. The encircled and destroyed the besieging German 6th Army. Even then, the 6th Army could have broken the encirclement and fought its way out of Stalingrad. however Hitler's incompetence made them remain
 in Stalingrad. Eh Soviet's victory in the east was a near run thing.


________________________________
 From: Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] 
Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2012 12:54:29 PM
Subject: Re: Racism and War, was Article: "To College Students Considering a Course in American Poetry"
 
Just a note. My reference was NOT to Russian involvement (or
non-involvement) at the end of the war. My reference was to a battle fought
_before_ the war had even begun, in 1939. I'll look up some more accurate
details of it later.

Carrol

Tom Gray:

> In response to the Russian involvement in the defeat of Japan, here is
another
> version of the story from PBS
> 
> 
>
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/macarthur/filmmore/reference/interview/maihafe
> r01.html
> 
> ===============================================
> MAIHAFER: There's a wonderful story about General Derevyanko, the Russian
> representative. And, remember now, the Russians had gotten into the war,
the
> very tail end, after the bomb had been dropped and the war was for all
intents
> and purposes over with. And, yet they wanted to be full time partners.
And,
> Derevyanko came into MacArthur's office and said something to the effect
that, he
> was going to start bringing Russians troops into Honshu. And, MacArthur
said,
> "When first Russian lands, when any Russian lands here in Japan, the whole
> Russian delegation is going to be thrown in jail, beginning with you,
General."
> (Laughing) And, Derevyanko , no one had ever talked to him that way before
and
> he looked at him and said, "My God I think you would." And, he slunk out
of the
> office and no more was heard about bringing Russian troops into Japan.
> 
> =============================================
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> From: Tom Gray <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 4:31:24 PM
> Subject: Re: Racism and War, was Article: "To College Students Considering
a
> Course in American Poetry"
> 
> 
> Carrol Cox writes:
> 
> =================
> Had Roosevelt and Churchill approved the bombing of the rail lines leading
> to the death camps (thus saving several million lives) one might see some
> redeeming features for WW2,
> ==============
> 
> This is simply incorrect. It had been learned by experience that the
bombing of rail
> line had little to no effect. They were easily repaired and the bombing
would offer
> no impediment to the NAZIs. What was found effective was to  bomb the
city-
> based marshaling yards in which trains were assembled. This would damage a
> vital facility and, importantly, destroy rolling stock and maintenance
facilities that
> could not be easily replaced.  This was done as part of the war effort.
Bombing
> the lines to the death camps would only divert forces and delay the end of
the war
> thus leaving the NAZI's more time to murder.
> 
> The statement about Japan is also not correct. A spy in Japan had
determined that
> the Japanese had no plans to attack the Soviet Union. Thus the forces in
the East
> could be brought west to deal with the Nazis at Stalingrad. Stalin also
insisted on a
> second front being opened constantly. The Russians only declared war on
Japan
> after the atom bombs had been dropped. They did this to be eligible to
take
> advantage of the surrender. They wanted to control an area in Japan but
General
> MacArthur told them to . Well he told them that they couldn't. They had
been
> holding negotiations with the Japanese ambassador abut an alliance with
Japan in
> the final months of  the war. They had asked the Japanese what they could
offer
> and when they couldn't offer anything useful, they refused the offer. They
told the
> Japanese that the offer of the Imperial Fleet was of no interest because
the
> Imperial Fleet was at the bottom of the Pacific.
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> From: Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 7:53:56 PM
> Subject: Re: Racism and War, was Article: "To College Students Considering
a
> Course in American Poetry"
> 
> 
> I've been working on a longer response to Nancy's first post, but I want
to
> make a quick response to these posts between her and Tom Gray.
> 
> WW 1 was simply the most stupid & inexcusable war in human history, and I
> would make no distinctions between the Kaiser and Wilson as war criminals.
> William Jennings Bryan should be remembered not for the buffoonery of the
> Scopes Trial but for the most admirable act by any cabinet official in
U.S.
> history -- his resignation as Secretary of State when he saw that Wilson
was
> consciously and malignly manipulating the U.S. into the slaughter. The
> heroes of the war were the IWW, Eugene Debs, the participants in the
Easter
> Rebellion (slandered by Yeats in a great poem), various anarchists &
> pacifists, Luxemburg, Liebknectht, Trotsky, Stalin, Lenin, Bertrand
Russell,
> et al. Perhaps the most foolish line of poetry ever written was Yeats,
> "England may yet keep faith."
> 
> Had Roosevelt and Churchill approved the bombing of the rail lines leading
> to the death camps (thus saving several million lives) one might see some
> redeeming features for WW2, but I remain uncertain in my judgment of that
> war. The Soviet Union could have defeated Germany without assistance from
> the U.S., and in effect did so. The invasion had been halted before
military
> assistance reached the SU in any significant amount and before the Second
> Front in France. It had already defeated Japan in a great battle  there in
> 1939 before moving its troops back to the west just in time to meet
Hitler's
> invasion.
> 
> Carrol
> 
> Carrol
> 
> Carrol
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: T. S. Eliot Discussion forum. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
> Of Nancy Gish
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:11 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Racism and War, was Article: "To College Students Considering a
> Course in American Poetry"
> 
> Two things: yes, racism was marginalized, but it has erupted again in
> seriously disturbing ways; it is more coded but equally dangerous in the
> long run. When Texans talk of Civil War, and Militia groups go in for
> preparing to "take back" America--and, recently, killing, we have trouble.
> It's unfortunately much more alive than we thought.
> 
> WWI was a major factor that led to WWII. The "War to end wars" had no such
> effect--almost the opposite. And the 20th and 21st centuries have been
> extremely violent--with many smaller wars. They have not been in the main
> European countries, but they have not stopped. After WWII--Korea, Viet
Nam,
> Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia, many interventions in the Middle East.
> 
> I am not saying they should never be fought or that it would have been ok
to
> let Germany win either World War: I do not know what solution may ever
> exist. But I do not see how one can look back and see either racism or war
> ended or at all as marginalized as we hoped and thought.
> Nancy
> 
> 
> >>> Tom Gray 08/30/12 6:15 PM >>>
> 
> Yes, racism is still alive but it has now been marginalized.  There are
> still examples of ethnic cleansing in the world and  the issue is ongoing.
> WW1 and WW2 ended it as  cause of great power war in Europe. That is great
> power wars that unleashed the horrors of industrialized warfare. Japan has
> been transformed. Germany has been transformed and the Europe is the
better.
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> From: P <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 4:57:23 PM
> Subject: Re: Article: "To College Students Considering a Course in
American
> Poetry"
> 
> 
> Judging by what I'm hearing at the Republican Convention, that kind of
> thinking isn't dead yet.
> P.M.
> 
> Tom Gray <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> 
> WW1 and WW2 ended the philosophies of militarism and racial superiority.
> There were winners in all of this sacrifice and that is all of us. The
> racial superiority doctrines that led up to WW2 were there also in the
> causes of WW1 and were seen as so at the time.  So the reason that the
free
> thought behind this list can be found there as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> From: Ken Armstrong <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 11:27:07 AM
> Subject: Re: Article: "To College Students Considering a Course in
American
> Poetry"
> 
> 
> On 8/29/2012 10:28 PM, Nancy Gish wrote:
> > After years of studying WWI and the poetry it inspired, I cannot,
myself,
> respond to poems that thrill to winning battles: no one ever really wins.
> 
>     Can't imagine what this means. We are conducting this list in English,
> after all, not German or Japanese. There's a reason for that.
> 
> Ken A
> 
> 
> 
>