"Distracted from distraction by distraction". 'Tumid apathy', to say the least. CR ________________________________ From: Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 9:31 PM Subject: "Light fighting for speed" was . "Light / Light" (I can't do what follows neatly or very well because I can't flip through the pages finding the material I want, but it should be clear at least how ambiguous any given 'piece' of light imagery is in isolation.) Nancy's observations on the extensive appearance of light imagery in European (and I would presume Indian, Chinese, & Islamic) literature is highly relevant here: There is NO common _meaning_ attached to such imagery; in fact very similar imagery may have quite opposed meaning in any two poets. Pound's use of light imagery (pervasive in the Cantos) is closely related to Dante's use - but it expresses a perspective that would be repulsive to Dante. "Light figting for speed," by itself, means nothing whatever (as CR's endless quotations are meaningless in themselves). But in the context of the Cantos the phrase may be said to sum up as it were the whole poem, taking on one specific sense after another in shifting features of the poem. We may start with Manichaen theology: Creation occurred when light became entrapped in matter. (Matter is evil from the Manichaean perspective, which of course is a repudiation of the significance of the Incarnation and thus repulsive to any orthodox Christian.) The purpose of human life is to aid the escape of light from this entrapment in matter. In one Manichaean sect this became _really_ odd. It was believed that vegetables contained a great deal of light, and to aid the escape of this light this sect stuffed children with vegetables until they died, at which point the light escaped: Light fighting for speed. Now, while these words are not used, that line of Pound's catches up the action and imagery of Canto 2 of Dante's Heaven. (It's been years since I taught that Canto & I can't go into detail here.) Light fighting for speed, light disengaging itself from clutter, from darkness, can clearly be Christian as well as Manichaean & Fascist imagery. ("But the twice crucified." I don't remember the rest but it links Mussolini, bringer of light and clarity to the clutter & dinginess of Italy, to Manichae, whose followers called his death in prison a crucificxion; "By the heels at Milano" and "the twice crucified" may echo aspects of the life of Mani and Manichaean theology. For the dinginess of Italy, See the Canto on Pound showing a manuscript to a Mediveal scholar in Geermany, which refers to how _clean_ it was in comparison to Italy. (That whole Canto, 38?, is of great interest as a masterpiece of onomatopoeia: freshness, cleanliness after dinginess; obscure medieval phrase being brought from clutter to life/light: for comment on the verse see John Adams on reading Tully (Cicero) in one of the Adams Cantos. And so forth. Milton also uses light imagery, and that is yet another tale. And of course Pope's Dunciad, obsessively concerned with darkness, calls on light imagery on almost every page, implicitly or explicitly. And a number of Browning's poems use light imagery for yet different purposes. Carrol P.S. See also the use of light in Pound's "Near Perigord" and in a number of the poems in Lustra -- e.g. in the famous (or infamous) "In a Station of the Metro." Perhaps Eliot would not have explicitly linked his April to Chaucer's -- but Pound's eyes must have gleamed when he ssaw the line. In the Pisan Canto's, echoing Chaucer, he adds "And for 180 years almost nothing.) Quotation from memory. ************ From: Nancy Gish Wednesday, July 11, 2012 5:44 PM It is very difficult to read Eliot at all without noting constant references to light (and dark). In fact, light/dark imagery is pretty common in much literature. I always assume anyone on this list has read the poetry and is interested in discussion (clearly mistaken). But your insulting of Carrol's understanding is not relevant to the issue of a constant stream of quotations from Eliot on a list that exists to discuss Eliot--on, I would presume, the assumption that no one on the list needs the most obvious and constant images pointed out. The question is whether one gets anything out of reading the texts themselves that is illuminating and can be discussed, not whether one can get anything out of a gratuitous set of quotations with common and well-known images. Who on this list is presumed to be so unread in Eliot as to need these anyway? Nancy Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask]> 07/11/12 6:22 PM >>> P: Could you not get anything from the Eliot texts to which CR is pointing? CR has very kindly highlighted texts in Eliot which relate to light and a poetic rendering of E's intuitions about light. There is a parallel, or perhaps better an analogy between those intuitions and what quantum physics is telling us about the connections between the macro and micro dimensions of the universe. If that is meaningless to you then I am sorry for the paucity of your understanding. I prefer to think that you are just posturing. P. -------- No. As you must know, I regard CR as an utterly irresponsible in his construal of Eliot's text. But even among responsible readers there will be differences of interpretation, and for that reason I will not assume that a naked quote from Eliot gives positive information on any reader's views. You expressed agreement with some unstated proposition. I would like that stated in your own words before attempting to respond to it. My own interpretations of Eliot (and of almost all my favorite poets) express my understanding of the poet -- NOT my own views of the world. In fact, I differ rather sharply in fundamental ways from all the poets I most cherish. Poems do not express existential truths, though they may raise important existential questions. (The word "existential" here does not refer to the philosophy associated with that term.) I love both Paradise Lost and Pound's Cantos; I disagree profoundly with the "world views" to be found in those poems. The same is true of Pope's Essay on Man and Jonson's The Forest and Underwood. Book 24 of the Iliad does encompass a fundamental view with which I am in sympathy, but I hold that view independently of the poem. Hence I would not claim that The Iliad has any 'truths' to 'teach' the reader. The reader who does not already believe he/she shares a common humanity with his/her enemy is not apt to "learn" it from the Iliad. One needs to know that, in fact, in order to recognize the greatness of the poem. I'm afraid poetry teaches no lessons, nor does it contain new truths. Carrol