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thanks Peter I will chase the Golden dawn. Eliot isn't too discursive about what he proposes valuable in "the mythic method".  I was idly  wondering if he was anticipating Barthes kind of exploration of  myth as language robbery  but I don't find enough here to go on .

For my part I read the passage with the two sentences about Yeats  a distraction from his point that the horoscope is the testament of a world of futility and anarchy thus:

 It is simply a way of controlling, of ordering, of giving a shape and a significance to the immense panorama of futility and anarchy which is contemporary history. [It is a method already adumbrated by Mr. Yeats, and of the need for which I believe Mr. Yeats to have been the first contemporary to be conscious.] It is a method for which the horoscope is auspicious. 

more bleak than satiric if you will.

cheers pete


On 29/07/2012, at 12:11 PM, P wrote:


> It would probably be different. There were tonnes of occult goings on in the '20s & '30s, but a bit more blatant than today except perhaps Uncle Tom Cruise. If you really want the context in Eliot's time, check up on The Society Of The Golden Dawn. One difference in the sets of people you are talking about is that making fun of us standard sets is considered prejudice, while making fun of the occult sets like Scientology is entertainment. I guess from the secular perspective us standard guys aren't as interesting. I suppose its hard for the secular to understand all the non-sensory stuff that we do, but there it is, we do! Now a days evidence is reduced to what can be measured. Of course we accept on faith what the scientists say they have measured, and at the sub-atomic level they have a genuine religious schism, and some of them even want us to believe in the illogical behaviour of some things. It all sounds too occult for me.
> P. M.
> 
> 
> Peter Dillane <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> excuse me as the little kid on the corner but am I correct in thinking that this quite interesting conversation relies entirely on the shared belief that Eliot could not have actually believed in astrology.
> 
> For those of us without a god his convictions about the status of Jesus are at least as fanciful. Yes I know that belief has cultural authority and vast cumulative erudition to make his conviction less startling but that's just intellectual snobbery on our part  i.e. astrology finds its audience on page 120 of a glossy magazine but Aquinas  etc etc wrote about Jesus  - its a privileged silly idea.  But pace P and CR and T and K etc re the tone of his pronouncement and the auspices how would this discussion go if we had evidence he believed in horoscopes?
> 
> Pete
> 
> 
> 
> On 29/07/2012, at 9:13 AM, Chokh Raj wrote:
> 
>> This reading, I think, is supported by its context:
>> 
>> "It is a method already adumbrated by Mr. Yeats, and of the need for which I believe Mr. Yeats to have been the first contemporary to be conscious. It is a method for which the horoscope is auspicious."  
>> 
>> CR 
>> 
>> 
>> From: Chokh Raj <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask] 
>> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 6:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: Eliot, the past, and the mythical method
>> 
>> In other words, "It is a method for which [Yeats's horoscope/Forecast/Prediction] is auspicious."
>> 
>> CR 
>> 
>> From: Rickard Parker <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask] 
>> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 5:59 PM
>> Subject: Re: Eliot, the past, and the mythical method
>> 
>> Tom. below is one of your earlier posts for this subject. You and CR
>> have gone over this some since but this seems the best one for me to
>> reply to. But let me repeat Eliot's statement here:
>> 
>>   "In using the myth, in manipulating a continuous parallel between
>>   contemporaneity and antiquity, Mr. Joyce is pursuing a method which
>>   others must pursue after him. . . It is simply a way of controlling,
>>   of ordering, of giving a shape and a significance to the immense
>>   panorama of futility and anarchy which is contemporary history. . . . 
>>   It is a method for which the horoscope is auspicious. . ."
>> 
>> The last sentence of this could be written as
>>   //"The forecast for the method is good."//
>> Is that Eliot's meaning? I'm not sure.
>> 
>> Regards,
>>   Rick Parker
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 07:13:01 -0400, Tom Colket <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> >
>> >I wrote (in reference to TSE's Tradition essay):
>> >
>> >T> Is he being sarcastic when he says "It is a method for which
>> >T> the horoscope is auspicious"?
>> >
>> >And Rick wrote:
>> > 
>> >R> Sorry, I've thought some on this but I have no idea how to read
>> >R> this other then to ignore it as an aside.
>> >
>> >Rick: In context, here is the line in the essay:
>> >
>> >"In using the myth, in manipulating a continuous parallel between
>> contemporaneity and antiquity, Mr. Joyce is pursuing a method which others
>> must pursue after him. . . It is simply a way of controlling, of ordering,
>> of giving a shape and a significance to the immense panorama of futility and
>> anarchy which is contemporary history. . . . It is a method for which the
>> horoscope is auspicious. . ."
>> >
>> >Given the line's prominent placement, it's got to be more than an aside. 
>> >
>> >I've been thinking that the idea of a horoscope, the idea of astrology, is
>> that the planets and the stars greatly influence our individual lives and
>> fate. In other words, something "bigger than ourselves" plays a vital part
>> in our lives. 
>> >
>> >Perhaps what TSE is alluding to is that the "mythical method" is also
>> trying to establish a link between us and something "bigger than ourselves".
>> In other words, when Joyce uses the Greek myths of Ulysses' amazing
>> multi-year voyage and his eventual return home, and parallels it with a
>> one-day "journey" around a city in Ireland (and his eventual return to Molly
>> Bloom), Joyce is stating an implicit comparison/equivalence  between the
>> mythical Ulysses from antiquity and a contemporary  "ordinary person". So
>> maybe, for Eliot, the horoscope/astrology, which claims that the fate of an
>> "ordinary person" has its roots in the heavens is "auspicious", that is, is
>> yet another promising metaphor by which some other author can "control,
>> order, give a shape and a significance to the immense panorama of futility
>> and anarchy which is contemporary history".
>> >
>> >Just a thought.
>> >
>> >-- Tom --
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>