Print

Print



Esp. if one wants to follow the argumrnts about its irrelevance.
P.
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Chokh Raj
To: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: Il miglior fabbro: "Why then Ile fit you."

PS - What matters is whether or not our reading of Jessie Weston enhances our understanding and enjoyment of The Waste Land. 

CR


From: Chokh Raj <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: Il miglior fabbro: "Why then Ile fit you."

As for Jessie Weston's 'From Ritual to Romance', the outline at the following link 
makes a fascinating reading vis-a-vis The Waste Land.


CR


From: Chokh Raj <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: Il miglior fabbro: "Why then Ile fit you."

The Waste Land is open to interpretation, Hieronymo included. 
I largely find my supporting evidence in the text, as well as in the Notes,
your opinion to the contrary notwithstanding. 

CR


From: Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: Il miglior fabbro: "Why then Ile fit you."

So is Hieronymo, and that story is horrific and powerful, but you choose to treat it as whatever you want. The fact that the notes are there does not mean there is a story based on Weston--it is not even present until the fifth section, and then it is mixed with many, many other souces.
 
Why it matters to you to make the poem fit your desire is beyond explanation I presume, but if it were that only it would have been forgotten long ago. The notes were not, as a matter of fact, in the first printed version in the Dial, so is that a different poem then?
Cheers,
Nancy

>>> Chokh Raj 06/18/12 3:07 PM >>>
Well, I value the Notes as indispensable to my understanding and enjoyment of the poem whether or not Eliot owns or disowns them. Let them delete them from the printed version. But they CANNOT, howsoever they might wish them away. These ARE there. And that's a FACT. 

CR


From: Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: Il miglior fabbro: "Why then Ile fit you."

Since you are being serious, this is a serious reply. What you state as fact is not a fact but an interpretation that really does not work at all once we let go of the notes--that even Eliot repudiated later. Hugh Kenner was quite right in saying no one could believe in the Weston story on the basis of the first four sections, and a great many serious readers of Eliot, in fact, do "gainsay" it. Very few contemporary scholars read it at all in that way, and for major reasons, mainly that it simply does not work.
Cheers,
Nancy

>>> Chokh Raj 06/18/12 2:32 PM >>>
Nancy, you're only elaborating the character of the wasteland as it finds expression in the poem.

There is no gainsaying the fact, however, that the poem does find its resolution by way of the arduous journey to the Chapel Perilous which results in rain and in terms of what the Thunder spells as a way out of the impasse -- Datta, Dayadhvam, Damyata. The poem, I agree, does underscore the absence of these virtues and hence does, implicitly or explicitly, stress the need to cultivate them in order to counter the prevailing disorder. 

CR 


From: Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: Il miglior fabbro: "Why then Ile fit you."

//That is a plea the is not answered in any of the sections.// The "awful daring of a moment's surrender" leads to spider-draped memories and solicitors after death; the "key" is to the horrific tower and prison and to Coriolanus who was broken--to be revived only in "aetherial rumours of a 'moment'"; even the idyllic boat response is in the subjunctive--not anything that did or will happen. There seems a total gap between any advice given by the Thunder and any action or effect on human life.
 
Coriolanus, of course, fought with the Volscians against Rome, thus proving a traitor and broken by it.
N

>>> Chokh Raj 06/18/12 1:32 PM >>>
Apropos the wasteland, the closing, disjointed "images of chaos and destroyed cities", as Nancy puts them, only underscore the need for Datta, Dayadhvam, Damyata (Give, Sympathise, Control) so as to make way for a lasting peace. 

Thanks,
  CR


From: mikemail <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: Il miglior fabbro: "Why then Ile fit you." 

The lines from Nerval's poem described a disinherited Prince, heir  to a lost tradition.  The tower struck by lightning is also a card in the Tarot pack.  I suppose Hieronymo is speaking as a madman, having lost his son,  later in the play he says, ' Each of us must act his parte : in unknowne languages' all of which are used in TWL.  It seems that all the murder, the stress, the conflicted depicted in "these fragments' have only one solution -  Datta. Dayadhvam. Damyata.  Shantih    shantih    shantih   - words taken from two major religions.  To my mind,  representing a spiritual change of oneself.
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Chokh Raj
To: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 5:44 PM
Subject: Il miglior fabbro: "Why then Ile fit you."

 I sat upon the shore  
Fishing, with the arid plain behind me  
Shall I at least set my lands in order?     
 
London Bridge is falling down falling down falling down  
 
Poi s’ascose nel foco che gli affina  
Quando fiam ceu chelidon—O swallow swallow  
Le Prince d’Aquitaine à la tour abolie  
These fragments I have shored against my ruins     
Why then Ile fit you. Hieronymo’s mad againe.  
Datta. Dayadhvam. Damyata.  
 
      Shantih    shantih    shantih 

---

"Hieronymo’s mad againe."  

This is not altogether Hieronymo, my Lord!

In the context of 'The Waste Land', he sounds like some Messiah come to fit into a coherent and meaningful pattern "These fragments I have shored against my ruins". 

Significantly, in his Introduction to 'Ezra Pound: Selected Poems' (1928), Eliot cautions the readers "not to confuse the material (borrowed from other authors) and the use which the author makes of it'. In his own poetry, Eliot makes a creative use of borrowed material to serve his own context.  

In 'The Waste Land', this metaphoric/metamorphosed Hieronymo's assurance, "Why then Ile fit you" is followed by a clarion call, as it were, to uphold Datta, Dayadhvam, Damyata -- Give, Sympathise, Control. 

It is followed by the closing incantation invoked to usher in a lasting peace. 

CR


From: Chokh Raj <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: Il miglior fabbro

"Bard! thou who art my guide,

       ...         ...         ...

 Thou, who art wise, better my meaning know'st,
 Than I can speak."

 (Dante: Inferno, II. Trans. Henry F. Cary)

 CR


From: P <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 10:57 AM
Subject: Fwd:

RE: Il miglior fabbro

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Rejected posting to [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
CC:

Very neat pun, CR. If the fabbro fits , wear it.
Reminds me of the very well educated tailor who, in response
to my statement that I wanted a new suit, said, why then I'll
fit you! I in turn said, Arme, you say that to everyone!
To which he retorted, But you are the only oñe who challenges me.

Chokh Raj <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

"Why then Ile fit you." ;-)

 CR


From: Chokh Raj <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 8:32 AM
Subject: il miglior fabbro

The mystery of poetry editing: from TS Eliot to John Burnside 
By Sameer Rahim, Assistant Books Editor 
The Telegraph, 23 Jan 2012 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/9025194/The-mystery-of-poetry-editing-from-TS-Eliot-to-John-Burnside.html 

shaping the literary landscape

CR 




No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2180 / Virus Database: 2433/5073 - Release Date: 06/16/12
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2180 / Virus Database: 2433/5073 - Release Date: 06/16/12