That is a subtle, cultural tour de force. It will take some absorbing, but the basic premise makes a lot of sense to me. Cheers, Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Armstrong To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 11:09 AM Subject: Re: Strange Gods? John and Rickard, Rather than send multiple old posts to the list that might or might not arrive in readable fashion, I've combined four posts from Guy Story Brown from the 1998 almost-discussion of ASG that overlapped the Ultimate Burbank posts and put them on a web page. There is some cross referencing that should be obvious. I hope it is readable and that the background filling-in is useful. I did only the slightest editing to leave out purely personal and dated pleasantries; some possibly "provocative" stuff is there in whole, though I think that if the series of posts is ruminated upon and absorbed before judgement is made, it will be well worth any effort involved. Guy's interlocutors remarks are set off with << and >>. I think it should be pretty easy to follow (fingers crossed). The web page is http://www.olpossumstse.com/asg-notes.html . Please let me know if you have trouble accessing it. Ken A On 1/15/2012 4:38 PM, Ken Armstrong wrote: John and Rickard, Sorry to be away. Guy sent maybe five or six posts setting up background of ASG (not Journey of the Magi), by way of answering other listers' questions, and I'd be glad to get to those a little later and post them, maybe condensed some. All together they are somewhat lengthy. I'm not sure where the logic breaks down for you, John, but to be sure I'm no expert on early American sermons and theology and pretty much took for granted the connection you are questioning. If I'm not mistaken Brown is simply following Eliot following history, but will look to Guy for that in a bit. Ken A On 1/14/2012 7:57 AM, Rickard A. Parker wrote: On 1/12/2012 11:48 AM, John Morgenstern wrote: Thank you, Ken and Richard, for your useful responses. My curiosity was piqued while reading D. H. Lawrence's essay on /The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin/ in /Studies in Classic American Literature/, where Lawrence counters Franklin's list of virtues with his own creed: "/That gods, strange gods, come forth from the forest into the clearing of my known self, and then go back/." Given Lawrence's presence in Eliot's cultural critique, I wondered about possible connections. Guy Story Brown's alignment of "strange gods" in the Old Testament with (presumably) Winthrop's "city upon a hill" is striking, especially in the context of Lawrence's attack on Franklin's brand of Calvinism. Unfortunately, I fail to follow Brown's logic connecting the OT and early American sermons. This is probably due to my own ignorance, but would either of you mind spelling it out for me? As memory serves Brown left the TSE list not long after I joined at the start of my Eliot hobby. Maybe Ken can re-post more of the original GSB post. Regards, Rick Parker P.S. It's Rick or Rickard, not Richard. No apologies needed; it's something I live with.