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Brooks makes a good case for his reading. If it were "simply fact," it 
would be neither good nor a reading.

Ken A

On 9/9/2011 11:00 PM, Nancy Gish wrote:
> I know Broooks's view. It is one of many. But my point is that none of 
> this is simply fact; it is interpretation.
> Nancy
>
> >>> Chokh Raj 09/09/11 10:28 PM >>>
> /London Bridge is falling down falling down falling down /
> //
> //
> /Poi s’ascose nel foco che gli affina /
> /Quando fiam ceu chelidon—O swallow swallow /
> /Le Prince d’Aquitaine à la tour abolie /
> /These fragments I have shored against my ruins/
> /Why then Ile fit you. Hieronymo’s mad againe. /
> /Datta. Dayadhvam. Damyata. /
> //
> //
> /Shantih shantih shantih/
> -----
> While the civilization is crumbling, the poet has "saved" some 
> fragments from his "ruins" from which he seeks light for a lasting peace.
> Yes, this is only 'one' interpretation of the closing lines but, to 
> me, the most valid so far.
> I hold fast to Cleanth Brooks' interpretation of the closing llines 
> (quoted above) and oppose it to yours which chooses to look only at 
> the negative aspect of things -- "violence, chaos and murder" -- 
> closing eyes to what positive might emerge out of them, so as to make 
> what Yeats aptly called "a vineyard of the curse".
> Here's the relevant excerpt from Brooks:
> -----
> The bundle of quotations with which the poem ends has a very definite 
> relation to the general theme of the poem and to several of the major 
> symbols used in the poem. Before Arnaut leaps back into the refining 
> fire of Purgatory with joy he says: "I am Arnaut who weep and go 
> singing; contrite I see my past folly, and joyful I see before me the 
> day I hope for. Now I pray you by that virtue which guides you to the 
> summit of the stair, at times be mindful of my pain." This theme is 
> carried forward by the quotation from /Pervigilium Veneris: /"When 
> shall I be like the swallow." The allusion is also connected with the 
> Philomela symbol. (Eliot's note on the passage indicates this 
> clearly.) The sister of Philomela was changed into a swallow as 
> Philomela was changed into a nightingale. The protagonist is asking 
> therefore when shall the spring, the time of love, return, but also 
> when will he be reborn out of his sufferings, and--with the special 
> meaning which the symbol takes on from the preceding Dante quotation 
> and from the earlier contexts already discussed--he is asking what is 
> asked at the end of one of the minor poems: "When will Time flow away."
> The quotation from "El Desdichado," as Edmund Wilson has pointed out, 
> indicates that the protagonist of the poem has been disinherited, 
> robbed of his tradition. The ruined tower is perhaps also the Perilous 
> Chapel, "only the wind's home," and it is also the whole tradition in 
> decay. The protagonist resolves to claim his tradition and 
> rehabilitate it.
> The quotation from /The Spanish Tragedy/--"Why then Ile fit you. 
> Hieronymo's mad againe"--is perhaps the most puzzling of all these 
> quotations. It means, I believe, this: The protagonist's acceptance of 
> what is in reality the deepest truth will seem to the present world 
> mere madness. ("And still she cried . . . 'Jug jug' to dirty ears.") 
> Hieronymo in the play, like Hamlet, was "mad" for a purpose. The 
> protagonist is conscious of the interpretation which will be placed on 
> the words which follow--words which will seem to many apparently 
> meaningless babble, but which contain the oldest and most permanent 
> truth of the race:
>
>     Datta. Dayadhvam. Damyata.
>
> Quotation of the whole context from which the line is taken confirms 
> this interpretation. Hieronymo, asked to write a play for the court's 
> entertainment, replies:
>
>     Why then, I'll fit you; say no more.
>     When I was young, I gave my mind
>     And plied myself to fruitless poetry;
>     Which though it profit the professor naught
>     Yet it is passing pleasing to the world.
>
> He sees that the play will give him the opportunity he has been 
> seeking to avenge his son's murder. Like Hieronymo, the protagonist in 
> the poem has found his theme; what he is about to perform is not 
> "fruitless."
> After this repetition of what the thunder said comes the benediction:
>
>     Shantih Shantih Shantih
>
> -----
> http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/poets/a_f/eliot/wasteland.htm
> CR
> *From:* Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]>
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Sent:* Friday, September 9, 2011 7:41 PM
> *Subject:* Re: 'The Waste Land' - a recitation (was Re: vis-a-vis 
> 'Four Quartets')
>
> That is an (not "the") interpretation of "Shantih."  But the lines 
> above that are about violence, chaos, and murder. Moreover, Cleo 
> Kearnes has pointed out that the full ending of the Upanishad starts 
> with "Om," and Eliot omits it (though we know he studied them).
> So you are free to interpret one line as shaping all the rest, but 
> that interpretation is not "what the lines say": it is one reading of 
> very mixed lines.
> Nancy
>
> >>> Chokh Raj 09/09/11 7:20 PM >>>
> /apropos TWL's ending /
> Peter Montgomery wrote: *"They end it with a very positive tone, but 
> then that's what the lines say."*
> A valuable observation, Peter. Thanks.
> Regards,
>  CR
>
> *From:* Peter Montgommery <[log in to unmask]>
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Sent:* Friday, September 9, 2011 2:07 AM
> *Subject:* Re: vis-a-vis 'Four Quartets'
>
> Interesting to see that presentation again.
> They end it with a very positive tone, but then that's what the lines say.
> I suppose one could render them in an ironic way, but that would seem 
> rather forced.
>
> P.
>
> Quoting Chokh Raj <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>:
> >
> > THE WASTE LAND - read by Edward Fox, Eileen Atkins, and Michael Gough
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1TXBzw98ng
> >
>
>