"Revalation" figures at some key points in the "Anglocatholic" book of Barry Speer.
 
The Incarbation was the nodal doctrine for the Anglocatholics.
Their point of perspective was definitely medieval (not in the derogatory sense).
P.
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Tom Colket
To: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: Allusions, Echoes, Borrowins, etc was OF RELIGIOUS POETS

Carrol wrote:
C> Eliot is not a damned fool, but in the essay Tom quotes
C> he is certainly acting like one.

In researching this subject, I came across several articles that specifically referenced Eliot's introductory essay in the collected essays, "Revelation". Several authors stated that this is one of TSE's most under-appreciated (and largely unknown) essays. As an example of lines quoted from this particular essay, several articles referenced the following Eliot passage:

"I take for granted that Christian revelation is the only full revelation; and that the fullness of Christian revelation resides in the essential fact of the Incarnation, in relation to which all Christian revelation is to be understood.

The division between those who accept, and those who deny, Christian revelation I take to be the most profound division between human beings."

-- Tom --






 

Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 23:02:48 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Allusions, Echoes, Borrowins, etc was OF RELIGIOUS POETS
To: [log in to unmask]

Eliot is not a damned fool, but in the essay Tom quotes he is certainly acting like one.

 

Just as a beginning: there is nothing in the collected works of Eliot to justify is use of “we” in the passages quoted. It is that “we” that makes them more than merely false; very close to outright lies. Consider in the light of these lines how much Eliot owed to Pound! Now Pound was definitely not a Christian, and he had some twisted views, but he was also a great poet AND, as an individual, a a person of great generosity: his whole  life shows it. Now his Eliot saying that this man can only experience terror and horror.

 

If we ‘rewrite’ these lines and substitute “I” for “we” we make some progress. I’m not sure they make much sense even with the emendation – but at least they cease to be lies.

 

Carrol

 


From: T. S. Eliot Discussion forum. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tom Colket
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:08 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Allusions, Echoes, Borrowins, etc was OF RELIGIOUS POETS

 

R> what do you think of the
R> line after the one you you just quoted, i.e. "We move, outside of the
R> Christian faith, between the terror of the purely irrational and the
R> horror of the purely rational."
 
Rick, I really can't make much sense of that line. It sounds like TSE is saying that those without Christian faith are left with only terror (at the irrational things of this life) and horror (at the 'purely rational', whatever that is). If that's what meant to say, then, to me, that statement is simply false.  That line baffles me as much as the preceeding line about "waking as to damnation". It presents a view of life that I cannot relate to at all. But I asked the question to try to better understand if perhaps he meant something other than what the lines appear to mean.
 
-- Tom --
 
> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 17:07:10 -0500
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Allusions, Echoes, Borrowins, etc was OF RELIGIOUS POETS
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Tom Colket wrote:
> > I am not of Eliot's faith, so I ask this question out of ignorance -- In
> > the essay I cited, is Eliot expressing a commonly-held religious view in
> > this passage?:
> >
> > "We desire and fear both sleep and waking; the day brings relief from
> > the night, and the night brings relief from the day; we go to sleep as
> > to death, and we wake as to damnation."
>
> Maybe common but I think not prevalent. I have trouble thinking of any
> preacher other than a fundamentalist saying "we go to sleep as to death,
> and we wake as to damnation."
>
> Tom, you wrote "I am not of Eliot's faith" so what do you think of the
> line after the one you you just quoted, i.e. "We move, outside of the
> Christian faith, between the terror of the purely irrational and the
> horror of the purely rational."
>
> Regards,
> Rick Parker