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So it's all made up? Fine!  
 
One may not concur, though.
 
CR
 

--- On Wed, 12/8/10, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

It is ironic that anything Eliot said that was offensive in any way--about Jews, Africans, women, working class--is instantly defended as a persona, but anything he wrote using mystic language is taken as his own voice.
 
It doesn't work both ways.  
 
In any case, he said he wanted to create the experience of what it felt like to believe: the presence of a voice--even if it is a lyric voice--using that language is not evidence that he was himself a mystic.  In his own words, and not in a poetic persona or voice, he was not.

It does not matter how much poetry is quoted.M
N

 
>>> Chokh Raj 12/08/10 9:05 AM >>>
 





"after this our exile" --
 
 and a mystic yearning engendered in the soul --
 
"Blessed sister, holy mother, spirit of the fountain, spirit of the garden,
 Suffer us not to mock ourselves with falsehood
 Teach us to care and not to care
 Teach us to sit still
 Even among these rocks,
 Our peace in His will
 And even among these rocks
 Sister, mother
 And spirit of the river, spirit of the sea,
 Suffer me not to be separated 
 And let my cry come unto Thee."
 
CR

--- On Tue, 12/7/10, Chokh Raj <[log in to unmask]> wrote:







Agreed. And Eliot does recount having had intimations of another reality -- be it an early moment of 'Silence', or subsequent moments in the Rose Garden, in an arbor, or in a church. He is affected, and the reader with him. IMHO, Eliot will always be cherished as one of the most mystic of poets.
 
CR
 

--- On Tue, 12/7/10, Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> wrote:




// A difference of opinion. What Eliot said he was and what he was are not necessarily identical. In some areas of personal internal experience, it is difficult for a person to be objectively accurate as to what is going on. Eliot could well have been wrong about himself. He could have been being humble. It is pretty much a rule of thumb in spiritual experience that to declare one's self a mystic is to declare oneself to be a faux mystic. In any case being or not being a mystic does not
affect one's having mystical experience, if such experience happens. //
 
P.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Nancy Gish 
To: [log in to unmask] 
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: Love's new frontier: Eliot's mysticism


Just what makes your reading a fact and those of others error?


 >>> Chokh Raj 12/06/10 8:27 PM >>>





No, he is not just quoting them -- in Ash-Wednesday, for instance, he is describing his own experience. Eliot's poetry has rightly been viewed by many as his spiritual biography. No, it's not just a matter of informed quotation.
 
Regards,
 CR


--- On Mon, 12/6/10, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


//Eliot read the mystics and admired them.  I have read them and can quote them, as can any scholar who works on this material // --and that was done decades ago also. //That does not mean one is a mystic.// 
Nancy

>>> Chokh Raj 12/06/10 7:41 PM >>>





'Oh dark dark dark: They all go into the dark':
The via negativa in the poetry and thought of T.S. Eliot
by Barry Spurr

"[an] essential characteristic of [the poet's] experience of faith, as mediated in his poetry"
 
"In the third section of Ash-Wednesday (a portion of the poem entitled 'AI Som de l'Escalina', 'To the Summit of the Stairway' published separately in 1929 prior to the full work) the mystic's symbolic process of stair-climbing through purgation to unity begins to be detailed and applied to the speaker's own arduous spiritual ascent."
 
http://escholarship.usyd.edu.au/journals/index.php/SSR/article/viewFile/202/181
 
"Because I do not hope to turn again
 Because I do not hope
 Because I do not hope to turn
 Desiring this man's gift and that man's scope
 I no longer strive to strive towards such things"
 
CR


--- On Mon, 12/6/10, Chokh Raj <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

"Whether understood ultimately in Christian or Buddhist terms, however, Eliot's experience of the void in the middle of human relations is better understood initially as the basis of his mysticism -- from 'Silence' to 'The Waste Land', and beyond."

"The Waste Land's Mystical Void"
in 'T.S. Eliot: Mystic, Son, and Lover'
by Donald J. Childs,  pp. 107-127

http://books.google.com/books?id=2KngBXT4fx4C&source=gbs_navlinks_s

an insightful perspective

CR