Tom, the invitation is clear, I didn't indicate it was misunderstood. However Eugenides might misinterpret British politesse for sexual receptivity. Signs signify differently in different cultures. It was a small suggestion. My main point was that displaced persons have to adapt to new codes of behavior, languages, etc that 'dissociate' them from their previous identities. Diana Sent from my iPod On May 9, 2010, at 1:27 AM, Tom Colket <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Diana wrote: > D> Tom isn't it obvious that Eugenides has to adopt new personae > D> as he travels around from culture to culture? I hardly think that > D> needs explication; it's right there in Eliot's lines: > D> the change in languages, the misjudgement of a stranger's > D> interest on spending a weekend with him, > D> possibly as a failure of adaptation, everything about Eugenides > D> says he is displaced and trying to prevail in a foreign culture. > > It's not obvious to me. And if I didn't think it needed explication, > I wouldn't have asked the question. > > Why do you say there is a "misjudgement" of a stranger's interest on > spending a weekend with the narrator? What in the text says that Mr. > Eugenides is not propositioning the narrator when he asks him to > lunch at the Cannon Street Hotel followed by a weekend at the > Metropole? > > By the way, did you notice that the Eugenides lines are placed > immediately _after_ the lines "So rudely forc'd/ Tereu" (alluding to > the rape of Philomela) and right _before_ the lines about the rape > of the typist by the young man carbuncular? > > Lines about a sexual proposition (where the reader is left in the > dark about the outcome) sandwiched between two passages dealing with > rape? What a strange coincidence . . . > > -- Tom -- > > Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 19:06:15 -0400 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: TS Eliot: The Metaphysical Poets > To: [log in to unmask] > > > Tom isn't it obvious that Eugenides has to adopt new personae as he > travels around from culture to culture? I hardly think that needs > explication; it's right there in Eliot's lines: the change in > languages, the misjudgement of a stranger's interest on spending a > weekend with him, possibly as a failure of adaptation, everything > about Eugenides says he is displaced and trying to prevail in a > foreign culture. > > Diana > > Sent from my iPod > > On May 7, 2010, at 10:29 AM, Tom Colket <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Diana wrote: > > Displaced persons in Europe at that time had to quickly > > adapt to new cultures, language, tastes and mores, in fact > > being required to quickly develop personae in keeping with > > the societies in which they found themselves. Marie is > > only one example. Eugenides is another. > > Can you elaborate on why Mr. Eugenides is an example of someone > developing a personae in keeping with the societies in which they > found themselves? > > -- Tom -- > > > Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 08:20:03 -0400 > > From: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: TS Eliot: The Metaphysical Poets > > To: [log in to unmask] > > > > I neglected to add the quotes around 'dissociated' my original > post to > > which Ken responded with his quip about Pound psychoanalyzing > Eliot. I > > used quotes because in the same post I said I agreed with Nancy that > > dissociated is a problematic term. > > > > The Wasteland more than any poem of it's time shows how personae > serve > > survival. Displaced persons in Europe at that time had to quickly > > adapt to new cultures, language, tastes and mores, in fact being > > required to quickly develop personae in keeping with the societies > in > > which they found themselves. Marie is only one example. Eugenides is > > another. But in fact the entire European population was changed by > the > > war in having to adapt to new national boundaries, and loss of > friends > > and family. Professional identities were often lost, as we see now > to > > a lesser extent when we meet immigrant doctors and scientists who > are > > driving cabs. This is an existential condition of dissociation, and > > not mental illness. > > > > Diana > > > > Sent from my iPod > > > > On May 7, 2010, at 8:01 AM, Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]> > > wrote: > > > > > Ken apparently you missed Rick's post in which he said he found > the > > > notion of Pound psychoanalyzing Eliot amusing. He wrote that in > > > response to my claim that Pound took TWL on its own terms as the > > > expression of a dissociated personality and did not try to have > > > Eliot "unify" it. > > > > > > That's what Rick wrote, and prompting me to waste my time to > correct > > > your false statement is irresponsible on your part. > > > > > > Diana > > > Sent from my iPod > > > > > > On May 6, 2010, at 10:40 PM, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > > > > >> In fact, it is a commonly recognized psychological term used by > > >> many psychologists/philosophers (not, when Eliot was at Harvard, > > >> clearly separate) with a specific meaning. Eliot had read and > > >> commented on some of them (for example, William James), and he > knew > > >> the meanings. He uses them explicitly in many of his writings-- > > >> especially many not collected. > > >> > > >> What someone now just thinks it means without any of that context > > >> is really not an answer to Diana. > > >> Nancy > > >> > > >> >>> Ken Armstrong <[log in to unmask]> 05/06/10 10:10 PM > >>> > > >> DIana Manister wrote: > > >> > Nonetheless, I agreed with Nancy's opinion that dissociation > is a > > >> > misleading term. > > >> No one ever said there is either association or dissociation, > black > > >> and white. It's a relative term, which way I suspect most people > > >> take it > > >> and Eliot meant it in talking about sensibility. I see no problem > > >> using > > >> it this way. > > >> > > >> > My post in no way indicated that Pound was psychoanalyzing > Eliot. > > >> > That's a ridiculous interpretation of my comment. > > >> But it must be entirely your own, as no one else, recently at > least, > > >> made any such statement. > > >> > > >> Ken A > > > > > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more > from your inbox. See how. > > The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your > inbox. Get started.