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Peter, "sneaked," please! lol Diana Sent from my iPod On May 25, 2010, at 7:36 AM, Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Baudelaire snuck into CVhricyianity through the back door. > The savage's life is not horrible tothe savage, but the > civilised man becoming (reverting?) to savagery experiences > a deep sense of depravity, not a savagery. I seriously doubt > that Eliot would have seen 's state as savage. It was > obviously and patently an obsession. Savages are not obsessed. > > In fact K had probably gone over the edge to possession, or hell. > I wonder if he would have met Baudelaire along the way. > > P. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Nancy Gish > To: [log in to unmask] > Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 12:51 PM > Subject: Re: Mr. Eugenides > > Heart of Darkness is all about the ironic falseness of any notion of > "civilized." In the name of civilization, Kurtz goes into Africa > ostensibly to bring light to darkness but--in fact and from the > outset--to bring out the white (light) ivory to the dark moving > Thames. The "savages" are unclear because we never do and can never > can know how they acted before Kurtz came, but whatever it was, > however violent or cruel, we have no reason to think it was about > being "civilized" in any Western sense. So the book is about > hypocrisy and brutality and self-deception on the part of white > Europe. This is hardly even interpretation: Conrad's symbolism is > very overt and explicit, as when he shows a dying African with a > white thread around his neck or when Marlow realizes how he too > could be drawn into the emotion of the scene when he follows Kurtz > into a ritual or when he shows the heads on poles around Kurtz's > compound--and especially when he lies to Kurtz's Intended, thereby > upholding what he knows is not true while always recalling and > contemplating "The Horror! The Horror." > > But Eliot would have seen this as savage. He was very interested in > and used imagery of what he considered "savage," and the dominant > psychology of the day assumed a "primitive" and a "civilized" human > development. Vittoz, who treated Eliot, even claimed there were two > brains, the primitive and the civilized, and that neurasthenia > (Eliot's diagnosis) occured when the civilized brain lost control of > the primitive brain. The solution was those exercises in regaining > control through concentration. Compare, for example, the way Mr. > Hyde is called ape-like, and the assumptions of criminal "types," > as in Lombroso: > > HE [Lombroso] BEGAN WITH THE BASIC ASSUMPTION OF THE BIOLOGICAL > NATURE OF HUMAN CHARACTER AND BEHAVIOR: > A. HE FIRST CONCEIVED OF THE CRIMINAL AS A THROWBACK TO A MORE > PRIMITIVE TYPE OF BRAIN STRUCTURE, AND > These ideas permeated all kinds of disciplines, and Eliot not only > was familiar with them but chose a psychologist who wrote a book > defining them. > > Nancy > > > > >>> Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask]> 05/24/10 10:56 AM >>> > I note that this post overlaps my post. Lots here to work out. > > Carrol > > Diana Manister wrote: > > > > Dear Peter, > > > > By de-civilized I meant less civilized than previously. Not > > uncivilized. Europe's sense of itself as Enlightened could not be > > maintained after the mutual butchery and unethical practices of > the war. > > > > But Kurtz is a paradigm or symbol for de-civilization. It's the > > book's main theme to which all sub-themes and leitmotifs relate. > > > > Thanks for thinking of that. > > > > Diana > > > > Sent from my iPod > > > > On May 24, 2010, at 2:16 AM, Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> > > wrote: > > > > > Eliot was a big fan of THE HEART OF DARKNESS. > > > > > > Is Kurtz de-civilised? > > > > > > Mr. Civilisation, he dead! > > > > > > P. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Carrol Cox" <[log in to unmask]> > > > To: <[log in to unmask]> > > > Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 7:19 AM > > > Subject: Re: Mr. Eugenides > > > > > > > > >> Diana Manister wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Peter, > > >>> > > >>> Yes dehumanized. De-civilized too, if you will, > > >> > > >> "decivilized" (which is also not Eliot's word) is an even more > > >> inappropriate metaphor than dehumanized. The behavior of the > clerk is > > >> only possible within civilization! For one thing, even in a > > >> pre-capitalist class societies she would not have been living > alone > > >> or > > >> preparing her own meal. Those tins involved international > commerce. > > >> Moreover, the entire episode presupposes the atomized social > > >> relations > > >> which appeared embryonically in the 175th-c (and Milton with > amazing > > >> prescience grasped) and only fully (and only in England & > the U.S.) > > >> in > > >> the 19th-c. They were only beginning to develop in France & > Germany > > >> (and > > >> this enters into the causes of WW1). > > >> > > >> So whatever the young man and woman are or are not, they are > highly > > >> civilized -- and surely Eliot had enough of an historical sense > and > > >> was > > >> precise enough in his language (even the silent language of > thought > > >> and > > >> intention) that he would never have seen these characters as > > >> de-ciivilized. These vague, sloppy categories introduced by > readers > > >> rather than the poem trivialize the whole poem. > > >> > > >> Carrolk > > >