It seems to matter that Eliot claimed in the notes not to be familiar
with the "exact constitution" of the Tarot cards and used the one of the
man with three staves arbitrarily. And he represents Madam Sosostris as
a charlatan--hardly a purveyor of serious mystical knowledge (she can't
even see what one carries). Not that that is very bad for a woman in

But all of this is, precisely, decontextualized.

>>> Peter Montgomery 04/20/10 9:07 PM >>>
 There's mystical and then there's mystical.

For some people "mystical" means the whole gamut of the occult and
else that smacks of life in another "dimension", ie the supernatural,
Christian mysticism.

For other people it means only Christian mysticism and is rigidly
distinct from
the occult. Usually I use it in that sense. Were I going to refer to the
I would probably just say the occult, or depending on the context,
occult mysticism.
For me, the tarot, which I have indeed studied (see Charles Williams'
GREATER TRUMPS), would be part of the occult.

Best to clarify terms in this matter.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Chokh Raj 
To: [log in to unmask] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: through eliot's kaleidoscope

"Mystical Origins of the Tarot" By Paul Huson is a well-researched book.
It reveals the divinatory meanings of the cards as understood by
diviners in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. And "The Man with Three
Staves" wields occult powers by virtue of the mystical "three staves" he
carries. Three, as we know, is a very powerful mystical number.

As for "Who is the third who walks always beside you?" -- i.e, beside
"you and me" -- in the context of the journey of Christ's disciples to
Emmaus, it carries strong connotations of the divine that always
accompanies us in our spiritual quest. Regardless, the use of "the
third" here may just be coincidental, though, IMHO, one cannot rule out
a mystical dimension to it.


--- On Tue, 4/20/10, Nancy Gish wrote:
That, Eliot says, is an arbitrary association of one card. There is no
context for making all other examples of three into mystical moments.
And in any case, the Fisher King is not, as far as I know, a mystic.
What is the basis for your assertions?

>>> Chokh Raj 4/20/2010 3:45 PM >>>

The ascription of "mystical" cannot be arbitrary -- it is the context
that decides whether it is warranted, as in the following use of

"Here is the man with three staves".


--- On Tue, 4/20/10, Nancy Gish wrote:
According to Eliot, it is the Shackleton expedition and the Journey to
Emmaus, both of which had examples of this phenomenon. It is three, no
doubt, because in the Journey to Emmaus it was three. I do not think
Eliot shows any tendency to numerology anywhere, unless you want to note
that he writes in movements like music.

There are many explanations for this phenomenon of another being
experienced as present who is not literally there. For example, it is a
kind of hallucination frequent in soldiers and others who watched trauma
during WWI. The masses on the street, for example, echoes Bertrand
Russell's image, and Stetson echoes many, many accounts of soldiers who
think they see someone even though the person died in the War. Another
literary example is the hallucinatory scene in Mrs. Dalloway of the
former soldier's dead officer, imagined as walking toward him.

My point is that there is no single, absolute way to define this as
somehow mystical--though that may be one experience of it. And if every
time we encountered three of anything it meant a mystical experience, we
are all having them all the time. One may, of course, read it that way
if one finds it useful, but it is not a fact or an unquestionable

>>> Chokh Raj 04/20/10 10:27 AM >>>
Significantly, there is the triple configuration of the line:

"Who is the third*who walks always beside you?"

"There is always another one walking beside you".
The triple emphasis here appears purposive, especially vis-a-vis the
denial of the supernatural dimension of life in The [modern] Waste Land.
Reminds me of Christ's prophetic words: "Verily I say unto thee, that
this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice." 


--- On Tue, 4/20/10, Chokh Raj wrote:

poetic images: our origins do not always explain our ends

"Who is the third*who walks always beside you?"

["When I count, there are only you and I together
But when I look ahead up the white road 
There is always another one walking beside you 
Gliding wrapt in a brown mantle, hooded 
I do not know whether a man or a woman 
—But who is that on the other side of you?"] 

[Incidentally, Eliot's Notes: "I am not familiar with the exact
constitution of the Tarot pack of cards, from which I have obviously
departed to suit my own convenience. The Hanged Man, a member of the
traditional pack, fits my purpose in two ways: because he is associated
in my mind with the Hanged God of Frazer, and because I associate him
with the hooded figure in the passage of the disciples to Emmaus in Part

*In this mystical image, the presence of the mystical number 3 in "the
third" is noteworthy.