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Dear Nancy,

One does not expect a spectre, usually. I guess the uncanniness would  
depend on whether the walking, talking figure is someone recognized as  
having been alive. Stetson is such an uncanny figure. The eerie qualia  
is produced by the neither-nor state of the phenomenon, the  
spectator's inability to classify or qualify it as living or dead,  
since it's both. This is disorienting and produces a disturbance of  
the subject-object distinction.

Diana

Sent from my iPod

On Mar 16, 2010, at 9:30 PM, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Dear Diana,
>
> So am I.  One does not expect a spectre to be alive.  In the poem,  
> the spectre is in the first stanza as part of the description of the  
> city.  It is not someone thought to be alive, but a spectre when the  
> poem starts.  The focus of the poem is the multiplying old man seen  
> in that city.
>
> That's all I was noting.
> Nancy
>
> >>> DIana Manister 03/16/10 7:54 PM >>>
> Dear Nancy,
>
> I'm taking spectre to mean ghost, an apparition of someone once  
> alive that as the poem says "walks and speaks."
>
> Cheers,
>
> Diana
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
> On Mar 16, 2010, at 7:30 PM, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> If you find "uncanny" is illuminating, ok.  I don't think that is  
>> the mood, but I may be too used to its Scottish tones.  My point  
>> was that the walking spectre is not someone thought to have been  
>> alive but not.  I suppose I should reread to be specific.
>> Nancy
>>
>> >>> DIana Manister 03/16/10 4:41 PM >>>
>> Dear Nancy,
>>
>> The opening of Baudelaire's poem comprises an uncanny image of  
>> spirits walking in broad daylight:
>>
>>  THE SEVEN OLD MEN
>> O SWARMING city, city full of dreams,
>> Where in a full day the spectre walks and speaks;
>>
>> Diana
>>
>> Sent from my iPod
>>
>> On Mar 16, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Diana,
>>>
>>> The poem Eliot alludes to is about an old man replicating himself  
>>> into 7 old men; it is about multiplicity, not someone who was  
>>> thought dead.  Eliot was, I think, much more interested then in  
>>> Janet than Freud, who only became dominant in psychology around  
>>> 1920.  In any case, he wanted a therapist for himself who was not  
>>> Freudian.  There's a letter when he decided to go to Vittoz, and  
>>> he uses terms that suggest Janet.  I'd have to find it.  But I do  
>>> not think Freud helps explain Eliot as much as other theories then  
>>> current--at least Eliot's own notions of himself then.
>>> Nancy
>>>
>>>
>>> >>> Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]> 03/16/10 10:30 AM >>>
>>> Dear Nancy,
>>>
>>> The mood produced by the Dante and Baudelaire allusions together is
>>> that of the uncanny. Not only Dante's dead who are animated and  
>>> speak,
>>> but the dream-spectres of Baudelaire combine qualities of both the
>>> living and dead.
>>>
>>> Freud saw the uncanny in literature as an expression of repressed
>>> material entering awareness, something alive that was thought to be
>>> dead.
>>>
>>> Celan's poetry often comprises this mood in relation to Holocaust
>>> victims who are somehow still alive.
>>>
>>> Diana
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPod
>>>
>>> On Mar 16, 2010, at 9:27 AM, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>> > I do not think one can say these people are specifically defined  
>>> by
>>> > any single allusion. The allusions evoke moods and situations and
>>> > implications; they do not identify in particular ways. "Unreal
>>> > city," for example, is from Baudelaire's "Les Sept Viellards,"
>>> > though the dead may evoke Dante's also. According to Southam, "In
>>> > 1950 Eliot declared that these two lines [from Baudelaire]  
>>> summed up
>>> > Baudelaire's 'significance' for him: 'I knew what that meant,
>>> > because I had lived it before I knew that I wanted to turn it into
>>> > verse on my own account.'" The lines are these: "Fourmillante  
>>> Cité,
>>> > cité pleine de rêves,/Où le spectre en plein jour raccroche le
>>> > passant" ("Crowded city, city full of dreams,/Where in broad  
>>> dayligh
>>> > t the spectr stops the passerby").
>>> > Cheers,
>>> > Nancy
>>> >
>>> > >>> DIana Manister <[log in to unmask]> 03/16/10 8:50 AM >>>
>>> > Dear Rick,
>>> >
>>> > This lines are spoken by Ugolino in Canto xxxiii, cited by Eliot  
>>> in
>>> > TWL notes: "When I hear the door of the horrible tower locking."  
>>> The
>>> > locking signals that no food will be brought to Ugolino and the  
>>> boys,
>>> > who are starved to death.
>>> >
>>> > Not a happy way for Eliot to describe his work on London!  
>>> Technically
>>> > though, Virgil and Dante have not yet entered the first circle.  
>>> They
>>> > are at the gates. But as I think Carrol noted, souls there never  
>>> get
>>> > out.
>>> >
>>> > The Dante allusion in Burial of the Dead then would seem to  
>>> compare
>>> > London Bridge to the gates of hell, although it employs another  
>>> quote
>>> > from the Vestibule canto.
>>> >
>>> > Who are those crossing the bridge? Residents of this area in the
>>> > Inferno are the uncommited, who think only of themselves. That  
>>> would
>>> > not be the war dead.
>>> >
>>> > Diana
>>> >
>>> > Sent from my iPod
>>> >
>>> > On Mar 15, 2010, at 8:25 PM, "Rickard A. Parker"
>>> > <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > >> Since Eliot refers to those crossing London Bridge with the  
>>> Dante
>>> > >> quote
>>> > >> about death having undone so many, do you think the  
>>> implication is
>>> > >> that
>>> > >> London is a contemporaneous version of hell? The speaker's  
>>> subject
>>> > >> position is the same as Dante's after he and Virgil pass  
>>> under the
>>> > >> gateway
>>> > >> to hell, as you note.
>>> > >
>>> > > Here is the ending of T.S. Eliot's "London Letter" dated May,  
>>> 1921
>>> > > and published in The Dial magazine June, 1921. Note how he uses
>>> > Dante
>>> > > to comment on his work in the city.
>>> > >
>>> > > As the prosperity of London has increased, the City Churches  
>>> have
>>> > > fallen
>>> > > into desuetude; for their destruction the lack of congregation  
>>> is
>>> > the
>>> > > ecclesiastical excuse and the need of money the ecclesiastical
>>> > reason.
>>> > > The fact that the erection of these churches was apparently  
>>> paid for
>>> > > out
>>> > > of a public coal tax and their decoration probably by the
>>> > > parishioners,
>>> > > does not seem to invalidate the right of the True Church to  
>>> bring
>>> > them
>>> > > to the ground. To one who, like the present writer, passes his
>>> > days in
>>> > > this City of London (quand'io sentii chiavar l'uscio di sotto)  
>>> the
>>> > > loss
>>> > > of these towers, to meet the eye down a grimy lane, and of these
>>> > empty
>>> > > naves, to receive the solitary visitor at noon from the dust and
>>> > > tumult
>>> > > of Lombard Street, will be irreparable and unforgotten. A small
>>> > > pamphlet
>>> > > issued for the London County Council (Proposed Demolition of
>>> > Nineteen
>>> > > City Churches: P. S. King & Son, Ltd., 2-4 Gt. Smith Street,
>>> > > Westminster, S.W.1, 3s.6d. net) should be enough to persuade of
>>> > what I
>>> > > have said.
>>> > >
>>> > > http://world.std.com/~raparker/exploring/tseliot/works/london-letters/london-letter-1921-06.html#churches
>>> > >
>