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Someone in a previous post made the suggestion.

Judaism did preceed Christianity.

There is something of an historical perspective in the poem,
as the old man looks back on the past
(remember the line about the past having another pattern in 4Q).
The images do challenge given stereotypes. Christ is not usually presented
as a tiger, nor is the crucifixion usually presented as a devouring of
humanity.

The anagogical dimension of the poem is really quite interesting.

What would be your reaction if the line went
"my friend squats in the window"?

P.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "DIana Manister" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 4:19 AM
Subject: Re: 'Gerontion' -- the dramatic arc


> Who says the Jew is Jesus? He's depicted as negatively as Fresca and
> von Kulp. Who are they? Mary Magdelene and The Blessed Mother?
>
> Diana
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
> On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:03 AM, Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > If the Jew is Jesus, is he being anti-Semetic, or anti-Christian, or
> > both?
> > P.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "DIana Manister" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 5:38 PM
> > Subject: Re: 'Gerontion' -- the dramatic arc
> >
> >
> >> Dear Ken,
> >>
> >> The Jew bred in an estaminet is one of
> >> the most-often cited examples of Eliot's
> >> anti-Semitism, and the text you provided notes that Fresca comes from
> >> Eliot's parody of Pope's Rape of the Lock, in which Eliot depicts
> >> Fresca going to the loo -- another Jesus figure
> >> perhaps? Fraulein von Kulp's name is discussed in the text you linked
> >> to as derogatory, suggesting her culpability.
> >>
> >> I didn't invent these interpretations. Gerontion's narrator is
> >> holier-
> >> than-thou
> >> while expressing disgust for most of the human race.
> >>
> >> Diana
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPod
> >>
> >> On Feb 26, 2010, at 4:15 PM, Ken Armstrong <[log in to unmask]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Diana,
> >>>
> >>> Ah, read your post again and have to say no, I don't think you've
> >>> got much more than the most surfacy surface parts of it. Again, it's
> >>> a scene of communion,  "the jew" is Christ (the owner of the "house"
> >>> i.e. the temple that the body is and the "house" that would have
> >>> stained glass windows),  and there is no sneering to speak of.  To
> >>> say you don't want to know the significance of the names is just an
> >>> abbreviated way to say you don't want to know the  poem, and little
> >>> stands in your way to that end. Why not just leave it alone?
> >>>
> >>> Ken
> >>>
> >>> Diana Manister wrote:
> >>>> Dear Ken,
> >>>>
> >>>> Interesting text -- thanks. I'm trying to
> >>>> like Gerontion's narrator, but find it difficult.
> >>>>
> >>>> He's such a prig. He doesn't show much Christian charity towards
> >>>> others.
> >>>>
> >>>> And yes, reading the poem again I see
> >>>> that he's not taking ownership of his situation. Like Fitzgerald,
> >>>> he waits for a blessing from above.
> >>>>
> >>>> What do you like about this narrator?
> >>>> Seriously. Don't you find him preachy
> >>>> and superior-sounding, ready to tell
> >>>> everyone how it is, while sneering at
> >>>> the Jew, Fresca and Fraulein von Kulp (culpable), among others?
> >>>> He's not engaging at all. I don't want to know the significance of
> >>>> all the names as I'm certain they demeaning.
> >>>>
> >>>> The nuns taught us that confession is
> >>>> worthless unless one tries to stop sinning, but this narrator goes
> >>>> along
> >>>> displaying his disgust with most of humanity in an un-Christlike
> >>>> manner,
> >>>> showing no contrition for it. How can he expect a blessing?
> >>>>
> >>>> Diana
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent from my iPod
> >>>>
> >>>> On Feb 26, 2010, at 11:07 AM, Ken Armstrong
> >>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> DIana Manister wrote:
> >>>>>> Dear Peter,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The poem's speaker seems to acknowledge his inadequacies as his
> >>>>>> own, that is he is stuck because of his personal failure.
> >>>>> Not really. The poem's commands to the reader to "Think" include
> >>>>> this one:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Think
> >>>>>       44Neither fear nor courage saves us. Unnatural vices
> >>>>>       45Are fathered by our heroism.  Virtues
> >>>>>       46Are forced upon us by our impudent crimes.
> >>>>>       47 <http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/777.html#50>These
> >>>>> tears are shaken from the wrath-bearing tree.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The poem is the scene of communion and does specifically touch on
> >>>>> what Peter notes. Neither fear nor courage saves us.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ken
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >