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Dear Jerome,

There is a lot to be said for faith as it is lived that legalistic  
theology omits. My original point, before this turned into a  
Jesuitical exercise, was that Mary is a more powerful presence in the  
Catholic church than in Protestant religions, whether she is venerated  
or worshipped. Diana

Sent from my iPod

On Mar 9, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Jerome Walsh <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Diana,
>
> It is precisely my training in theology that enables me to know that  
> your claim is inaccurate, no matter how often it is parroted by both  
> well-meaning "defenders of orthodoxy" and by less well-meaning  
> detractors.  Roman Catholic dogma is MUCH more conditioned than  
> that.  When I was studying theology, the formulation was that the  
> Pope spoke infallibly when he taught (1) ex cathedra (2) on a matter  
> of faith and morals (3) that was contained in revelation and (4) was  
> to be held by all believers.  (1) A statement at a general audience  
> is not "ex cathedra."  (2) A noun phrase like "devotione  
> mariale" (or whatever his original text was) is not a teaching; it's  
> a noun phrase.  (3) There's no basis in scripture (and little in  
> tradition) that supports "worship" of Mary in the technical sense.   
> (4) The Pope's remarks were not presented as "teaching to be  
> accepted by all believers."  So, in no way whatsoever does this  
> remark qualify as "infallible."
>
> Please give theology the respect it deserves as a careful, nuanced  
> system of thought.  I try to do that for literary criticism and  
> learn from those whose understanding of the subject is deeper than  
> my own.
>
> Jerry
> From: Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 2:22:32 PM
> Subject: Re: Christian Belief in Eliot's Pre-conversion Poetry
>
> Jerome, since you profess theological expertise perhaps it is  
> unnecessary to remind you that all Catholics are required by the  
> catechism to accept that "the Pope cannot err in matters of faith  
> and morals." So that when a Pope establishes Mary worship there is  
> no arguing with it.
>
> I don't think it's I who have missed the point. Marian WORSHIP is  
> what Pope Paul II established, not veneration.
>
> Diana
>
> Diana,
>
> Really, Diana, you miss the point sometimes.  Worship of Mary is  
> worship.  Veneration of Mary is not.
>
> "Worship," in theology, is a technical term (just as "progressive  
> present tense" is in grammatical discourse).  No Christian communion  
> I am aware of (including the Catholic, in which I have some  
> theological expertise) "worships" Mary.  Some Christian communions  
> "venerate" (another technical term) her, as your source says.  Some  
> individual Christians no doubt venerate her in ways that are  
> virtually indistinguishable from their worship of God, but to  
> attribute their idiosyncratic (and theologically untenable) practice  
> to a Church as a whole is simply wrong.
>
> If, on the other hand, it is not your intention to use "worship" as  
> it is used in theology, then please define the term so that we  
> understand what you are claiming.
>
> Jerry Walsh
>
>
> From: DIana Manister <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 10:43:54 AM
> Subject: Re: Christian Belief in Eliot's Pre-conversion Poetry
>
> Really Peter you are tiresome sometimes. Worship of Mary is worship.
>
> See below.
>
> Diana
>
> A mother figure is a central object of worship in several religions  
> (for example, images of the Virgin and Child call to mind Egyptian  
> representations of Isis nursing her son Horus). The history of the  
> Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus Christ, depends on the texts of the  
> Gospels. Embellishments to her legend seem to have taken form in the  
> fifth century in Syria. The life of the mother of Christ was  
> exceptional: she was born free of original sin (21.168), through the  
> Immaculate Conception; she was taken to heaven after her death (17.190.132 
> ); and, just as Saint Thomas doubted Christ's Resurrection, so he  
> doubted Mary's Assumption. Theologians established a parallel  
> between Christ's Passion and the Virgin's compassion: while he  
> suffered physically on the cross, she was crucified in spirit. The  
> Council of Ephesus in 431 sanctioned the cult of the Virgin as  
> Mother of God; the dissemination of images of the Virgin and Child,  
> which came to embody church doctrine, soon followed.
>
> http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/virg/hd_virg.htm
>
> Since the first century, devotion to the Virgin Mary has been a  
> major element of the spiritual life of a vast number of Christians,  
> primarily in Catholicism. From the Council of Ephesus in 431 to  
> Vatican II and Pope John Paul II's encyclical Redemptoris Mater, the  
> Virgin Mary has come to be seen not only as the Mother of God but  
> also as the Mother of the Church, a Mediatrix who intercedes to  
> Jesus Christ and even a proposed Co-Redemptrix.
>
> The key role of the Virgin Mary in the beliefs of many Christians,  
> her veneration, and the growth of Mariology have not only come about  
> by the Marian writings of the saints or official statements but have  
> often been driven from the ground up, from the masses of believers,  
> and at times via reported Marian apparitions, miracles and healings.
> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blessed_Virgin_Mary?wasRedirected=true
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
> On Mar 9, 2010, at 3:53 AM, Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>  
> wrote:
>
> The Catholic Church does not worship Mary, nor does it consider her as
> having anything of a divine nature. One of the very early councils  
> of the
> Church, I think the one in Nicea, defined Jesus Christ as both God and
> man in an inseparable union, and to affirm that, indicated that Mary  
> gave
> birth to the entire person of Jesus, both divine and human, so the  
> calling
> of her to be the Mopther of God is a singular assertion of Christ's  
> nature.
> Mary is honoured or venerated in a very special way, but to say she is
> worshipped would be to assert a heresy.
>
> As I understand it, the Anglicans do subscribe to the same doctrines
> of that early council.
>
> Your highschool religious education is singularly lacking, it would  
> seem,
> Diana.
>
> Peter
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Diana Manister
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 6:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Christian Belief in Eliot's Pre-conversion Poetry
>
> Dear David,
>
> Worship of the Virgin Mary as nearly the fourth person of the  
> Blessed Trinity is absent from Anglicanism. There are many other  
> differences, such as confession made to a priest, but the Mother of  
> God is a biggie. The Catholic church decided to incorporate Mary  
> when efforts to ban Mary-worship failed.
>
> Diana
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
> On Mar 8, 2010, at 2:45 AM, David Boyd <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> CR
>
> At risk of being pedantic, don't think TSE ever converted to  
> 'catholicism'
>
> He converted to the established Church of England, to the 'High  
> Church / Anglo-Catholic' faction within it, but still to Protestant  
> Anglicanism, as opposed to Roman Catholicism.
>
> Theology isn't my interest, but believe there are fundamental  
> cultural and theological differences here, not least Papal  
> authority / infallibility.
>
> Not to mention female priests !
>
> In reality, it's all the spectrum of the very 'broad' Anglican  
> Church - at one end, the Pope has sought to entice the Anglo- 
> Catholics back to the Vatican fold, but at the other 'Low Church'  
> end, this notion would be unthinkable.
>
> And culturally, this does still matter a lot - just look at Northern  
> Ireland and its troubles, for example.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 7 March 2010 17:18, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> He grew up in a religious Christian home.  That is known.  No one  
> has said otherwise.  That is not the issue.  It is a fact that at  
> Harvard he attended Buddhist meetings and studied Eastern  
> philosophy, but he did not become a Buddhist.  What is there to  
> demonstrate about his early Christian milieu that anyone denies?
> Nancy
>
> >>> Chokh Raj 03/07/10 11:32 AM >>>
>
> Dear Listers,
>
> In the posts that follow, I intend taking up Eliot's preoccupation  
> with Christian thought and imagery in the poetry he chose to publish  
> before his formal conversion to Catholicism. What fascinates is the  
> fervence, ardor and earnestness that he brings to bear upon his  
> treatment of them. To me it is here, more than anywhere else, that  
> one can trace the poet's essential rootedness in Christian belief.
>
> Regards,
>  CR
>
>
>
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