Print

Print


I don't find any disagreements here. Thanks.

CR

--- On Wed, 2/3/10, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Dear CR,
>  
> Thank you for the clear definition.  But the
> "spurr[ing]. . . into activity" calls for
> careful study of his reading and sources.  According to
> Ron Schuchard (who probably has more access to the records
> than anyone) "Eliot read the English poets of the 1890s
> before he read Dante or baudelaire, and he later credited
> them with preparing him for 'initiation into the 
> work of some of the French Symbolists, such as la Forgue
> [sic], whom I came across shortly after."  The use
> of personae is constant in Laforgue.  My concern is in
> attributing to Dante what was readily available and used
> throughout IMH when there is no specific reason to assume it
> in that epigraph--which is about a person, not a
> persona.  I checked with our Dante scholar on the use
> in that passage, by the way, and he agreed with me that the
> English derivation from Latin would not mean it had such a
> meaning in Italian, and as you have no doubt noted, no
> one seems to have found it translated that
> way.
>  
> There is no doubt, on the other hand, of the impact of
> Dante on "Prufrock" in some way.  It picks up
> on the notion of a narrator who experiences himself in Hell
> and unable to speak of its meaning or feel that he is
> heard.  
> Cheers,
> Nancy
> 
> >>> Chokh Raj 02/03/10 12:52 PM
> >>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, Nancy.
> I'm sorry.
>  
> The question
> essentially centers around what actually spurs a
> poet into activity --  irrespective of whether
> one is aware of something before or not. As for Dante's
> Divine Comedy, especially Inferno, it is germane to
> both the matter and the manner of
> 'Prufrock'. Significantly, The Divine
> Comedy is a most dramatic poem.
>  
> Regards,
>  CR
> 
> --- On Wed, 2/3/10, Nancy Gish
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> 
> Do you think it courteous to thank Ken for being
> discourteous to me?  I think that an odd idea of
> politeness.  //And this still does not address
> the whole issue of why it would take a specific instance in
> all of the Divine Comedy (Dante encounters
> persons throughout) to suggest to Eliot a common
> poetic technique.//
>  
> These parallel monologues serve no purpose. 
> Unless you answer a direct question about facts, it is not a
> discussion. Have you any evidence whatever--historic,
> linguistic, biographical, critical--to speculate that in a
> single epigraph Eliot found so common an idea and was
> apparently not aware of it before?
> Nancy
> 
> 
>  >>> Chokh Raj 02/03/10 11:07 AM
> >>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, Ken. As for chronology, Eliot
> could always go back to the lines (in Dante) that might
> have inspired him in the first place and choose to make
> them into an epigraph subsequently.
>  
> Regards,
>  CR
> 
> --- On Wed, 2/3/10, Ken Armstrong
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Nancy Gish wrote:
> > Why do you ignore the fact that the word does not mean
> "persona" in Italian
>     CR says explicitly "*a person who
> could/would/might..."    etc. Do you see it?
> "Persona" he uses in reference to Prufrock. Can we
> not say Prufrock is a persona? "One can
> visualize," not
> "one can confirm that"...it is as legitimate a
> way of grasping (at) Eliot's poetry as any.
> 
> Ken A
> *
> > and that Eliot did not use that epigraph when he first
> wrote the poem?  It was not, chronologically, a
> starting point: the poem was written with a different
> epigraph. So it is not clear what point you are making.
> > Nancy
> > >>> Chokh Raj 02/02/10 10:00 PM >>>
> > Words that struck a chord in Eliot  One can
> visualize Eliot reflect on Montefeltro's words and make
> them into a starting point for a confessional monologue of *
> (conversely) never return to the world* -- a persona that
> lives out this philosophy of indifference to "the
> world" not just in 'Prufrock' but in the rest
> of Eliot's poetry.
> >  CR
> > 
> > --- On *Mon, 2/1/10, Chokh Raj /<MailScanner has detected a possible fraud
> attempt from "us.mc450...mail.yahoo.com" claiming
> to be MailScanner has
> detected a possible fraud attempt from
> "us.mc450..mail.yahoo.com" claiming to
> be [log in to unmask]>/* wrote:
> > 
> >     Peter, going by Eliot's
> habits of mind (ref. Southam), the
> >     epigraph may have provided him
> with a clue, the
> >     all-important starting point,
> for conceiving this dramatic
> >     monologue as a disguised mode
> of confession [a la Montefeltro in
> >     Inferno] -- putting on the
> persona of a middle aged man. Apart
> >     from what "persona"
> denotes in the epigraph, it could
> >     easily suggest to Eliot the
> technique of "persona" as a masque
> >     for a character other than the
> poet himself.
> >          Thanks &
> regards,
> >          CR
> > 
> > 
> >     --- On *Mon, 2/1/10, Peter
> Montgomery /<MailScanner has detected a possible fraud
> attempt from "us.mc450.mail..yahoo.com" claiming
> to be MailScanner has
> detected a possible fraud attempt from
> "us.mc450.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to
> be venture_v@TELUS....NET>/*
> >     wrote:
> > 
> >         Let us not over
> look Dante's use of the word PERSONA in
> >         Eliot's
> epigraph
> >         of the poem.
> >               
>   P.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
>  
>