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Thanks for the lead, Peter.  I tracked it down.  You are citing the Douay-Rheims translation, an early, Roman Catholic, English version that translates Jerome's Latin, the Vulgate (as all Roman Catholic translations had to do before about 1940).  And, yes, the Vulgate does have "in the Holy Spirit" in 1:9, though I can't find any explanation for where he got it.  Modern translations, including Roman Catholic ones like the New Jerusalem, translate directly from the original language (or, in the case of Sirach, from a hybrid of the original Hebrew, where it is extant, and the Septuagint Greek, which is the traditional canonical version) instead of taking a further detour through Jerome's Latin.

Jerry Walsh


From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sat, January 16, 2010 7:44:00 PM
Subject: Re: TS Eliot: "the heart of light"

I have no trouble with that translation, although my favourite

is the New Jerusalem. I read the passage in my daily reading of the

Liturgy of the Hours. I don't know the version they used, but it's much like yours.

The Liturgy version put me in mind of Eliot's interests in wisdom, so I used

a version that came up on Google because I didn't have time to scan

the text. Your help and interest are much appreciated.

 

Cheers,

Peter

On Jan 12, 2010, Jerome Walsh <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Peter,

It's always dangerous to quote Scripture when there's a biblical lurker on the site!  What translation are you using, please?  I find nothing in the Greek to correspond to "in the Holy Ghost" in verse 9.   I don't have copies of the Hebrew fragments at hand, so I can't tell whether they support the reading, but it strikes me as highly improbable.  In any case, the archaic English of your translation makes it likely that the translation predates the discovery of most of the Hebrew fragments.

For what it's worth, here's the NRSV of the same verses.  It is "based on a critical comparison of the Hebrew manuscripts with the Greek text."

7. [lacking in some ancient authorities]
8. There is but one who is wise, greatly to be feared,
    seated upon his throne--the Lord.
9. It is he who created her [that is, "wisdom"],
    he saw her and took her measure
    he poured her out upon his works,
10. upon all the living according to his gift;
    he lavished her upon those who love him.
11. The fear of the Lord is glory and exaltation.
    and gladness and a crown of rejoicing.
12. The fear of the Lord delights the heart,
    and gives gladness and joy and long life.
13. Those who fear the Lord will have a happy end:
    on the day of their death they will be blessed.
14. To fear the Lord is the beginning of wisdom;
    she is created with the faithful in the womb.

Jerry Walsh


From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tue, January 12, 2010 4:11:11 PM
Subject: Re: TS Eliot: "the heart of light"

That kind of review of Eliot's spiritual/poetic journey tends to put
me in mind of the first book of Sirach (aka Ecclesiasticus), esp. these
verses:

Chap. 1
  7  To whom hath the discipline of wisdom been revealed and made manifest?
and who hath understood the multiplicity of her steps?
  8  There is one most high Creator Almighty, and a powerful king, and
greatly to be feared, who sitteth upon his throne, and is the God of
dominion.
  9  He created her in the Holy Ghost, and saw her, and numbered her, and
measured her.
10 And he poured her out upon all his works, and upon all flesh according to
his gift, and hath given her to them that love him.
11 The fear of the Lord is honour, and glory, and gladness, and a crown of
joy.
12 The fear of the Lord shall delight the heart, and shall give joy, and
gladness, and length of days.
13 With him that feareth the Lord, it shall go well in the latter end, and
in the day of his death he shall be blessed.
14 The love of God is honourable wisdom.

Remember Eliot's line from the choruses from The Rock:

"Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?"

Cheers,
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Armstrong" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: TS Eliot: "the heart of light"


> Chokh Raj wrote:
> > ps - i'm heartily sorry for interrupting the ongoing discussion with
> > this post -- the list will kindly keep it for another day - CR
> >
>    Don't apologize, CR. As my old professor said, the house of criticism
> has many mansions; so, too, can the list support many threads. That's
> what threads are for. And as Nancy remanded with me a few years ago
> (some things don't change), it's an open list!: anyone may respond to
> anything with any opinion. Feel free.
>
>  I read through the article by Mallory Wilhelm, which I take to be a
> student paper, and found it provocative and insightful. I need a few
> quiet moments, however, to digest it for any further use or comment. I
> especially like what she says about Ash-Wednesday, though I've read
> similar previously.
>
> Ken A
> >
> > --- On *Tue, 1/12/10, Chokh Raj /<[log in to unmask]>/* wrote:
> >
> >
> >    From: Chokh Raj <[log in to unmask]>
> >    Subject: TS Eliot: "the heart of light"
> >    To: [log in to unmask]
> >    Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 11:50 AM
> >
> >
> >    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ChristAsSol.jpg
> >
> >    Seeking "the Word in the Desert": T. S. Eliot's Quest for Christ
> >    By Mallory Wilhelm
> >
> >    http://ayjw.org/print_articles.php?id=640253
> >
> >    "How oft, in spirit, have I turned to thee..."
> >
> >    Cheers,
> >      CR
> >
> >
> >