We know, on the other hand, what he said about her in poems. Naturally that would evoke joy and desire on her part. N >>> Kate Troy <[log in to unmask]>01/29/09 8:25 PM >>> Of course, concerning some of these men, it's far more soothing to the ego to say that women shouldn't have sexual feelings or those feelings are irrelevant rather than being put in a position of having to satisfy such feelings. In Eliot's case, he was as a young person shy with women. As to what Vivian said to him of his bedroom abilities, we can only imagine. How this affected him . . . . In a message dated 1/29/2009 1:15:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes: > Nancy Gish wrote: > > Well, he is quite certain that he does know. That is what is so > infuriating. Eliot, on the other hand, seems never to be concerned > about it. "Ode" is an ode to total sexual narcissism; the narrator > seems utterly unaware that another person might have feelings about > such an awful experience. I'm unfamiliare with "Ode," and Google failed to help with it. (I was also unfamiliar with "Figs," but Google came through on it. Does anyone have an electronic copy of it they could send me. I'm particularly interested just now in "infuriating" poems. "Figs" is infuriating enough, but its writing seems slack to me, and I want well-written outrages. Note, assuming "ode" well written (or that I am wrong on "Figs"), There must be 10s of thousands of pages of trash expressing "utter unawareness" of others, and surely we meet up with such unawareness in daily life. Couldn't one argue that in fact one of the central functions of literature is to make visible the outrageous! The attitudes Lawrence expresses are not his alone; they probably are widespread enough to be an element in the ideological support for continued male supremacy. A poem does not itself need to "know" or "express" the truth, if by considering the poem a reader may find truth for him/herself. Poets, as Plato claimed, may all be liars -- but readers may nevertheless gain truth from the lies, be those lies powerfully enough expressed. Carrol Carrol tips and tools to help you improve your credit score.