It's in a 'Hacksteak', I think, Peter !
[but it will probably come with a certificate that it's from Argentina and definitely not from England - they're paranoid about BSE, even though English beef now as well as still being some of the finest in the world must be the safest to eat, it is so very very strictly regulated.]
'Burgher' is something like 'citizen of a town' - hence in English 'borough' and probably most place names ending in 'burgh'
 Regards   David

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 11:19 AM, Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
when the Chancellors address tye citizens of Germany on TV,
I notice they use the word burgher. Where's the beef?
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">David Boyd
To: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: More mindless blather from the Far Left: Was: T.S.E. at 101

It has to be said that, in my experience, the assumptions  I've read on this List about the proper meaning of a 'Berliner' are completely spurious.
Kennedy without doubt proclaimed, much to the bemusement of the natives 'I am a jam doughnut'. Any casual glance around one of Berlin's many bakery shops will reveal neat little piles of Berliners lovingly assembled for sale to said natives.
But do think it's clear from the drift and from the [accurate] bit of Latin too that JFK was merely contrasting Communism and Capitalism there where these systems  so starkly and savagely clashed and trying, albeit clumsily, to express his nation's solidarity with the natives of West Berlin. A rather mild form of sabre-rattling, if any, I think !
Moreover, we must not forget the little  habit of the East German Border Guards of the time mercilessly to gun down their own escaping young countrymen and then just stand and do nothing except  watch them helplessly bleed slowly to death, at the foot of that Wall - unspeakably, disgustingly,wrong, wasn't that, irrespective of anyone's politics ??


On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Scot Goodkin <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Cox wrote:

C> But Kennedy's claim to be a Berliner had its grim side:

C> it was an implicit threat to blow up the world

C> in 'defense' of Berlin


Sorry Cox. Today we have the Internet so we can judge for ourselves the ridiculous claims of the Far Left. You can't get away with it any more.


Here's the text of President Kennedy's heroic speech at Berlin. Let me know if anyone on the list finds an "implicit threat to blow up the world in 'defense' of Berlin".




Text: Kennedy's Berlin speech



I am proud to come to this city as the guest of your distinguished Mayor, who has symbolised throughout the world the fighting spirit of West Berlin.


And I am proud to visit the Federal Republic with your distinguished chancellor who for so many years has committed Germany to democracy and freedom and progress, and to come here in the company of my fellow American, General Clay, who has been in this city during its great moments of crisis and will come again if ever needed.


Two thousand years ago the proudest boast was "civis Romanus sum". Today, in the world of freedom, the proudest boast is "Ich bin ein Berliner".


I appreciate my interpreter translating my German!


There are many people in the world who really don't understand, or say they don't, what is the great issue between the free world and the Communist world. Let them come to Berlin.


There are some who say that Communism is the wave of the future. Let them come to Berlin.


And there are some who say in Europe and elsewhere we can work with the Communists. Let them come to Berlin.


And there are even a few who say that it is true that Communism is an evil system, but it permits us to make economic progress. Lass' sie nach Berlin kommen. Let them come to Berlin.


Freedom has many difficulties and democracy is not perfect, but we have never had to put a wall up to keep our people in, to prevent them from leaving us.


I want to say, on behalf of my countrymen, who live many miles away on the other side of the Atlantic, who are far distant from you, that they take the greatest pride that they have been able to share with you, even from a distance, the story of the last 18 years.


I know of no town, no city, that has been besieged for 18 years that still lives with the vitality and the force, and the hope and the determination of the city of West Berlin.


While the wall is the most obvious and vivid demonstration of the failures of the Communist system, for all the world to see, we take no satisfaction in it, for it is, as your mayor has said, an offence not only against history but an offense against humanity, separating families, dividing husbands and wives and brothers and sisters, and dividing a people who wish to be joined together.


What is true of this city is true of Germany - real, lasting peace in Europe can never be assured as long as one German out of four is denied the elementary right of free men, and that is to make a free choice.


In 18 years of peace and good faith, this generation of Germans has earned the right to be free, including the right to unite their families and their nation in lasting peace, with good will to all people.


You live in a defended island of freedom, but your life is part of the main.

So let me ask you as I close, to lift your eyes beyond the dangers of today, to the hopes of tomorrow, beyond the freedom merely of this city of Berlin, or your country of Germany, to the advance of freedom everywhere, beyond the wall to the day of peace with justice, beyond yourselves and ourselves to all mankind.


Freedom is indivisible, and when one man is enslaved, all are not free.


When all are free, then we can look forward to that day when this city will be joined as one and this country and this great continent of Europe in a peaceful and hopeful globe.


When that day finally comes, as it will, the people of West Berlin can take sober satisfaction in the fact that they were in the front lines for almost two decades.


All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of Berlin, and, therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words "Ich bin ein Berliner".



On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
robert meyer wrote:
> Gunnar?  Huh?!?  I lived in Germany in the mid 1960s, and the Germans
> always referred to a citizen of a city as whatever the city's name was
> plus a suffix of "er" - citizens of Frankfurt were "Frankfurters",
> citizens of Berlin were "Berliners", citizens of Hamburg were
> "Hamburgers."  Only in America Frankfurters are sausages, Berliners
> are jelly rolls, and Hamburgers are fried meat patties; Americans just
> make up weird words.


Perhaps because I never buy or eat them I had never come across
"berliner" as a jelly roll! Hamburger refers to only one kind of meat
patty, that made from beef, though in the past one source of Trichinosis
in the U.S. was from eating rare hamburgers in which the beef had been
'supplemented' with pork.

But Kennedy's claim to be a Berliner had its grim side: it was an
implicit threat to blow up the world in 'defense' of Berlin, just as his
Inaugural Address signed the death warrant for several million people in
Southeast Asia.


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