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It has to be said that, in my experience, the assumptions  I've read on this
List about the proper meaning of a 'Berliner' are completely spurious.

Kennedy without doubt proclaimed, much to the bemusement of the natives 'I
am a jam doughnut'. Any casual glance around one of Berlin's many bakery
shops will reveal neat little piles of Berliners lovingly assembled for sale
to said natives.

But do think it's clear from the drift and from the [accurate] bit of Latin
too that JFK was merely contrasting Communism and Capitalism there where
these systems  so starkly and savagely clashed and trying, albeit clumsily,
to express his nation's solidarity with the natives of West Berlin. A
rather mild form of sabre-rattling, if any, I think !

Moreover, we must not forget the little  habit of the East German Border
Guards of the time mercilessly to gun down their own escaping young
countrymen and then just stand and do nothing except  watch them helplessly
bleed slowly to death, at the foot of that Wall - unspeakably,
disgustingly,wrong, wasn't that, irrespective of anyone's politics ??








On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Scot Goodkin <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> Cox wrote:
>
> C> But Kennedy's claim to be a Berliner had its grim side:
>
> C> it was an implicit threat to blow up the world
>
> C> in 'defense' of Berlin
>
>
>
> Sorry Cox. Today we have the Internet so we can judge for ourselves the
> ridiculous claims of the Far Left. You can't get away with it any more.
>
>
>
> Here's the text of President Kennedy's heroic speech at Berlin. Let me know
> if anyone on the list finds an "implicit threat to blow up the world in
> 'defense' of Berlin".
>
>
>
>
>
> ============================
>
> Text: Kennedy's Berlin speech
>
> (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3022166.stm)
>
>
>
> I am proud to come to this city as the guest of your distinguished Mayor,
> who has symbolised throughout the world the fighting spirit of West Berlin.
>
>
>
> And I am proud to visit the Federal Republic with your distinguished
> chancellor who for so many years has committed Germany to democracy and
> freedom and progress, and to come here in the company of my fellow American,
> General Clay, who has been in this city during its great moments of crisis
> and will come again if ever needed.
>
>
>
> Two thousand years ago the proudest boast was "civis Romanus sum". Today,
> in the world of freedom, the proudest boast is "Ich bin ein Berliner".
>
>
>
> I appreciate my interpreter translating my German!
>
>
>
> There are many people in the world who really don't understand, or say they
> don't, what is the great issue between the free world and the Communist
> world. Let them come to Berlin.
>
>
>
> There are some who say that Communism is the wave of the future. Let them
> come to Berlin.
>
>
>
> And there are some who say in Europe and elsewhere we can work with the
> Communists. Let them come to Berlin.
>
>
>
> And there are even a few who say that it is true that Communism is an evil
> system, but it permits us to make economic progress. Lass' sie nach Berlin
> kommen. Let them come to Berlin.
>
>
>
> Freedom has many difficulties and democracy is not perfect, but we have
> never had to put a wall up to keep our people in, to prevent them from
> leaving us.
>
>
>
> I want to say, on behalf of my countrymen, who live many miles away on the
> other side of the Atlantic, who are far distant from you, that they take the
> greatest pride that they have been able to share with you, even from a
> distance, the story of the last 18 years.
>
>
>
> I know of no town, no city, that has been besieged for 18 years that still
> lives with the vitality and the force, and the hope and the determination of
> the city of West Berlin.
>
>
>
> While the wall is the most obvious and vivid demonstration of the failures
> of the Communist system, for all the world to see, we take no satisfaction
> in it, for it is, as your mayor has said, an offence not only against
> history but an offense against humanity, separating families, dividing
> husbands and wives and brothers and sisters, and dividing a people who wish
> to be joined together.
>
>
>
> What is true of this city is true of Germany - real, lasting peace in
> Europe can never be assured as long as one German out of four is denied the
> elementary right of free men, and that is to make a free choice.
>
>
>
> In 18 years of peace and good faith, this generation of Germans has earned
> the right to be free, including the right to unite their families and their
> nation in lasting peace, with good will to all people.
>
>
>
> You live in a defended island of freedom, but your life is part of the
> main.
>
> So let me ask you as I close, to lift your eyes beyond the dangers of
> today, to the hopes of tomorrow, beyond the freedom merely of this city of
> Berlin, or your country of Germany, to the advance of freedom everywhere,
> beyond the wall to the day of peace with justice, beyond yourselves and
> ourselves to all mankind.
>
>
>
> Freedom is indivisible, and when one man is enslaved, all are not free.
>
>
>
> When all are free, then we can look forward to that day when this city will
> be joined as one and this country and this great continent of Europe in a
> peaceful and hopeful globe.
>
>
>
> When that day finally comes, as it will, the people of West Berlin can take
> sober satisfaction in the fact that they were in the front lines for almost
> two decades.
>
>
>
> All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of Berlin, and,
> therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words "Ich bin ein Berliner".
>
>
>
> ====================================
>
> On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> robert meyer wrote:
>> >
>> > Gunnar?  Huh?!?  I lived in Germany in the mid 1960s, and the Germans
>> > always referred to a citizen of a city as whatever the city's name was
>> > plus a suffix of "er" - citizens of Frankfurt were "Frankfurters",
>> > citizens of Berlin were "Berliners", citizens of Hamburg were
>> > "Hamburgers."  Only in America Frankfurters are sausages, Berliners
>> > are jelly rolls, and Hamburgers are fried meat patties; Americans just
>> > make up weird words.
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> Perhaps because I never buy or eat them I had never come across
>> "berliner" as a jelly roll! Hamburger refers to only one kind of meat
>> patty, that made from beef, though in the past one source of Trichinosis
>> in the U.S. was from eating rare hamburgers in which the beef had been
>> 'supplemented' with pork.
>>
>> But Kennedy's claim to be a Berliner had its grim side: it was an
>> implicit threat to blow up the world in 'defense' of Berlin, just as his
>> Inaugural Address signed the death warrant for several million people in
>> Southeast Asia.
>>
>> Carrol
>>
>
>