Let us not forget that Eliot had been reading Danté since forever,
so the same passage could also have influenced earlier writing.
It is a very striking image that no doubt caught Eliot's sensitive
imagination the first time round.
Why need an artist be old in order to write about or create age.
I've been creating old men as an actor since I was in my twenties.
I think EFFECT is much more to the point than logic.
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Tom Colket
To: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: Eliot's French poems from "March Hare"



I've been looking more at the Little Gidding line when the narrator meets the 'familiar compound ghost'. Commentaries that I've read point at an allusion to Dante's Inforno, Canto XV, when Dante meets Ser Brunetto Latini in the circle of the sodomites. There is fire all around and Dante says:


(Inferno XV: 25-30)

And I, when he stretched out his arm to me,

Fixed my eyes on his baked aspect, so that the

scorching of his visage hindered not

My mind from knowing him; and bending my

Face to his, I answered: "Are you here, Ser Brunetto?"


In Little Gidding, the narrator is describing the aftermath of a bombing (presumably during World War 2) and the description is reminiscent of the fire and smoke in Dante's Canto XV:

"Between three districts where the smoke arose . . .

  . . .  in the brown baked features

The eyes of a familiar compound ghost

Both intimate and unidentifiable."


So the similarities in language, i.e., the 'signals' of an allusion (and not just a coincidence of words) include:

a) The fact that the people encountered in each poem have a scorched face.

b) The use of the specific word 'baked' by both Dante and TSE to describe the scorched face.

b) The smoke in the scene.

c) The surprised and specifically worded phrase, "Are _you_ here?" when the speakers meet in each poem.


If that's right, then isn't it also reasonable to infer that _both_ the narrator and the 'ghost' would be (figuratively speaking) in the same 'circle' in Dante's Inferno, given that they are addressing each other?



So I assumed a double part, and cried

And heard another's voice cry: What! Are _you_ here?"



That is, the narrator is saying that both he and the 'ghost' are saying _to each other_, "What! Are _you_here?". This is the line said by Dante to express his surprise that his teacher, Ser Brunetto Latini, is in the circle of the sodomites.


It seems to me that the inference is that the narrator and the ghost recognize each other as homosexuals. That seems to fit into the 'confessional' nature of this passage (e.g., "the shame of motives late revealed, and the awareness/ of things ill done and done to others' harm/ Which once you took for exercise of virtue").


Do you read this section of 4Q in this way, at least in part?


-- Tom --


> Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 15:03:22 -0500
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Eliot's French poems from "March Hare"
> To: [log in to unmask]
> I think the similarity is there and complex. I addressed it in an essay
> in Cassandra's and my book:
> Even the "familiar compound ghost" of "Little Gidding," who returns with
> wisdom, recalls the division when "body and soul begin to fall
> asunder"--a dissolution comparable to that of Prufrock in "Pervigilium":
> "And as he sang the world began to fall apart." This figure, much
> explicated and identified with other poets, is also a transformed
> version of the double--in this case explicitly identified: "So I
> assumed a double part, and cried . . . Knowing myself yet being someone
> other--." The streets they walk are "streets I never thought I should
> revisit." Though this figure is represented as a ghost and a "dead
> master," he is also represented as the speaker's self, and, like the
> other doubled figures of old men, one whose memory of tasteless fruit
> and "expiring sense/ Without enchantment" and of the dissolution of body
> and soul parallels those of other doubles."
> Stetson is an earlier double, not "old" but ancient, both contemporary
> and from the past, like Tiresias. But such figures run through all of
> Eliot.
> Nancy
> >>> Tom Colket <[log in to unmask]> 11/29/08 2:44 PM >>>
> Rick Parker wrote:
> R> I've been doing some re-reading on Eliot's friend Jean Verdenal
> R> recently and how he appears in TSE's poems (or, more skeptically,
> R> how he may possibly appear in them.) . . .
> R> I was taken with the Marin!/Sailor! line and how it
> R> echoed TWL's "Stetson!" line (and then found out that Ricks
> R> noticed it too -- but of course). I'm not sure what to make
> R> of this but Stetson had a corpse and Corbière
> R> had one too -- his own body.
> Rick:
> I also noticed the similarity between the "Stetson!" line from TWL
> (about a sailor at Mylae) and the "Marin!/Sailor!" line from 'Tristan
> Corbière' (They even visually look the same with their exclamation mark
> after a single word).
> I wonder if TSE continues this in Little Gidding with the 'ghost' that
> he meets:
> -----------------
> So I assumed a double part, and cried
> And heard another's voice cry: What! Are _you_ here?"
> -----------------
> Again we have the single word followed by an exclamation mark
> ("Stetson!", "Marin!", "What! Are _you_here?"). Also, the TWL line also
> has the narrator 'shouting/crying': 'There I saw one I knew, and stopped
> him, crying: "Stetson!"', as does the Little Gidding line ("cried/And
> heard another's voice cry:").
> The 'water/dead sailor' image is brought up later in the poem with:
> ----------
> So I find words I never thought to speak
> In streets I never thought to revisit
> When I left my body on a distant shore.
> --------
> -- Tom --
> > Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 05:26:24 -0500> From: [log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Eliot's French poems from "March Hare"> To:
> [log in to unmask]> > Thank you Tom (and your friend) for the
> translations of those poems.> > I have a few random thoughts I want to
> share on the poems and Ricks'> notes in Inventions of the March Hare.> >
> The most general thought is that Tristan Corbière was one of Paul>
> Verlaine's poets poètes maudits (accursed poets). I'm wondering if TSE,>
> with his French poems, was trying to be one in literary style if not>
> lifestyle. Could someone who knows the French poets make a comment>
> please.> > Some links:>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_Corbi%C3%A8re>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Po%C3%A8te_maudit> > I've been doing some
> re-reading on Eliot's friend Jean Verdenal recently> and how he appears
> in TSE's poems (or, more skeptically, how he may> possibly appear in
> them.) That is coloring my remaining thoughts.> > One of Ricks' notes
> mentions the similarities between the lines in> "Tristan Corbière"> Des
> rayons de soleil, ...> (Sunbeams, on a warm afternoon show us, in the
> Luxembourg gardens ...)> with the rememberance of Verdenal mention in a
> Criteion commentary.> > The line> "The sea batters the Brittany coast in
> gusts."> brings to my mind Phlebas' Cornish seas (I'm assuming that
> Eliot had> the north shore ofMarin!/Sailor! line and how it echoed TWL's> "Stetson!" line (and then
> found out that Ricks noticed it too -- but of> course). I'm not sure
> what to make of this but Stetson had a corpse and> Corbière had one too
> -- his own body.> > Regards,> Rick Parker
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get more done, have more fun, and stay more connected with Windows
> Mobile®.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642556/direct/01/

Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail. Sign up today.

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.11/1818 - Release Date: 11/28/2008 7:31 PM