Nancy, I should add that I have a ten-year old Border Collie! (he only herds his toy sheep.)
I once tried haggis too; a girlfriend thought it would be a great idea to cook haggis tortellini. It wasn't.
I once read a series of detective novels in which an English detective is having a breakdown of some sort and goes to Scotland to recuperate, and of course finds lots of crimes there to solve. It's an old series, not the one you recommended with the Scots detective, which I also read. I can't recall the author; I read them a long time ago. I just got a Jackie Kay from the library. Very best, Diana
> Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 14:02:18 -0400 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: "Zietgeist" (Was Inventions of the March Hare ) > To: [log in to unmask] > > Dear Diana, > > I've read every Rankin novel. I love them because I always know where > he is. If you have not read McIllvaney, see if you can find the Laidlaw > novels--only three beginning with "Laidlaw." (His others are not > detective novels.) His best known novel is "Docherty," and all are set > in Glasgow--quite different from Edinburgh. > > Also, if you can find it, J. Derrick McClure's "Why Scots Matters" will > give you an extremely informed overview of Scots as a language and the > reasons it is treated differently historically. I just looked at it > again and was delighted the he points to Glasgow and the Northeast also > as the most unlike standard English; that is my own experience from > living in Scotland. > Cheers, > Nancy > >>> Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]> 03/21/08 1:31 PM >>> > > Nancy, how generous you are! I'm grateful for the information you supply > and will print and study it. > > There is a wonderful BBC detective series called "Rebus" which is set in > and around Edinburgh. I've seen them all. > > They are based on the Inspector Rebus detective novels by Ian Rankin. > The novels, centred on the title character Detective Inspector John > Rebus, are set in and around Edinburgh. Rankin said he named his > detective Rebus as a subtle reference to Inspector Morse, but later met > a man in a pub whose last name was Rebus. It is a Polish name, so in > some of the shows Rebus refers to his grandparents coming to Scotland > from Gdansk. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inspector_Rebus > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detective_Inspector_John_Rebus > > Four series have been aired. All of the episodes are available on DVD. I > rented them from Netflix. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebus_%28TV_series%29 > > I think you would enjoy these programs if you haven't seen them. Cheers, > Diana > > Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:59:04 -0400> From: [log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: "Zietgeist" (Was Inventions of the March Hare )> To: > [log in to unmask]> > Dear Diana,> > I'm delighted that you care about > this and want to know more. So sorry> but here's more. > > I have no > doubt at all that you can find books and websites that include> Scots > with English. There are two main reasons for that. First,> Northumbrian > and Mercian are both Anglo-Saxon and the term used for them> both was > "Inglis." That is, they were different dialects of what was a> form of > Germanic language called "Inglis" for both. So the conflation> of the > term "Inglis" with what became modern English seems to> incorporate > Scots. But that is just about naming. The significant> point is that > they were separate dialects of a Germanic language that> were already > separate as far back as any texts exist, and they developed> separately. > > > The second reason is that a very long time it was believed that > Scots> was merely a version (and a degraded one) of English. It was only > in> the 19th century with increasingly knowledge of the history of > language> that the history started being re-examined. Even Scots in the > 18th> century, for example, believed it, but there were many scholars > who did> not, and the introduction to Jamieson's 1808 edition is a great > example> of the resistance to that even before the philology made it > clear. But> current scholars of Scots language have the long history to > demonstrate> it. Moreover, the long hegemony of England over Scotland > sustained a> notion of English as somehow primary, and it became so > economically, but> that has nothing to do with its origins OR with the > fact that it is> still spoken all over Scotland in various degrees. In > Edinburgh High> Street shops, for example, you will hear a > Scots-accented English, but> you could go to villages in Fife or the > Northeast and find it very hard> to understand a word--the same for a > Glasgow pub. Scholars of language> all over Scotland, however, would > never say that it is just a version of> English except in the historical > sense that English is also a version of> Scots. So that claim in books > and websites is the ignorance of a long> history of appropriation.> > > WHighlands were, until the late 18th/ early 19th C, before the> > Clearances, Gaelic speaking, not Scots speaking or English speaking. > > Sorley Maclean, for example, wrote in Gaelic and translated his own> > poems. I once heard him read, and it is beautiful. Scotland has three> > languages: Scots, Gaelic, and English. And the language in Rankin or> > McIllvaney or other Scots writers will include dialects of Scots, not> > dialects of English, because Scots is not just a dialect of English. > > But the language and sounds are extremely varied, and some--like > Glasgow> or Northeast Doric are more different and take longer to follow > than> others. So the term "dialect" has to clearly distinguish the fact > of> many dialects of Scots from the notion that Scots is a dialect of> > English in the way, for example, that Downeast speech is a dialect of> > American English or that the speech of the Queen is one dialect of> > English, which it is. This historic sources make the distinction of> > Scots/English different from, say, American/English.> > If you want to > read a passage of braid Scots (broad Scots) that is very> beautiful, > read the opening of Lewis Grassic Gibbons's SUNSET SONG.> > And brava! > to you for caring about it,> Nancy> > >>> Diana Manister > <[log in to unmask]> 03/21/08 9:47 AM >>>> > Nancy I have been > thinking seriously about what you wrote yesterday> about Middle Scots > and first of all want to thank you for holding my> feet to the fire on > this issue.> > In replying to Carrol's objection to my use of > "zeitgeist" I was> focussed on defending it as a definition of the > "différance" between> texts produced in different historical periods > in contrast to the> universal or mythic deep structure they may share.> > > (I was thinking in terms of Joyce's Ulysses, which shares the deep> > structure of a hero's homecoming with Homer's tale. The difference> > between Homer's telling of the story and Joyce's is in a signBut I did > toss off that remark about the Scots ballad being a subset of> the > English thoughtlessly, even though I have found numerous books and> > websites on old ballads that include the Scots with the English.> > I > have printed out your message below and will study it. I can't tell> you > how grateful I am for you and other members on this list who call me> on > my sloppy usage. No sarcasm intended. You guys help me to clarify my> > thinking and become more precise in my writing.> > I do have an intense > interest in language; David Boyd sent me a> dictionary of colloquial > Cumbrian dialect that I just love, as I do the> East Midlands dialect > Lawrence uses in his poems and novels set in> Nottingam and Hardy's > "Wessex" dialect. One of the great joys of the> mystery novels starring > the Scots detective that your recommended were> the samples of > contemporaneous native dialect. > > I have watched every episode of > "Monarch of the Glen" more than once> because I love to listen to its > characters who speak Highlands dialect!> > Again, many thanks! Diana> > > Well yes, I do want to get very accurate about it.> > It is not> > laughable; it is accurate history of language. Scottish> ballads are > not> a subset of anything. In fact most of the ballads from> the United> > Kingdom are from the Scottish Borders and most historians of> poetry> > would see them as one of the major poetic creations of Scotland. >> > Scotland was until 1707 an independent nation and when the kingdoms>> > united, it remained in many ways separate: Scottish law and the Church>> > of Scotland, for example, have always remained separate. "LOL" is>> > condescending--and, frankly, offensive--apart from implying a false> > idea> of literary history, and I think you would find any Scottish> > history of> ballads hardly imagining them a "subset"--whatever that> > would mean. > Moreover, I think it time everyone was a great deal more> > accurate about> it. Significantly, there is now (for nearly a decade) a> > Scottish> discussion session at MLA and a Scottish literature section > in> the> bibliography. Scotland, moreover, now has a separate > parliament> again> fothe Collins> Encyclopedia of Scotland says "they> form the bulk of > Scotland's folk> literature, described by an American> critic as > 'unsurpassed by any in> the world.'" They were collected and> written > down by Child, Burns,> Walter Scott, and recently Edinburgh"s> Scottish > Studies department,> especially Hamish Henderson, but they had a> long > prior history as oral> poetry in the Scottish Borders.> > The language > also is not a "subset"> of anything. Anglo-Saxon had four> dialects: > Northumbrian, Kentish, West> Saxon, and Mercian. Middle Scots> came from > Northumbrian and developed> into modern Scots. Middle English> of > Chaucer was from Mercian and that> developed into modern English. > > Scots was separate from as far back as> any text is known in > Anglo-Saxon;> it did not develop from English. In> fact, the oldest text > in> Anglo-Saxon is "Caedmon's Hymn," which was> first in Northumbrian. > So it> makes just as much sense historically and> linguistically to see > English> as a subset of Scots as the opposite. But> neither would be > accurate. > If you want to know something about it,> just look at the > four huge> volumes of Jamieson's Etymological> Dictionary of the > Scottish Language> and see the immense vocabulary that> does not exist > in English--as well> as the sounds and rhythms and> idioms. Try to get a > feel for "sonsy" and> "couthy" and "scunner" and> "antrin" and "wheesht" > and "bool" and> "broukit" and "byspale" and the> sounds of "the Sauchs > in the Reuch Heuch> Hauch" before laughing out> loud at what you have > apparently never read. > > I find this so wrong> and so inaccurately > mocking of a great literary> tradition that I am> amazed to see it from > you. I think you might try> reading some of> Scotland's long history of > great poetry and look> especially at modern> and contemporary poets like > Hugh MacDiarmid, > Sorley Maclean, Tom> Leonard, Edwin Morgan, Liz > Lochhead, Kathleen Jamie,> Carol Ann DufJackie Kay. I am sorry, but it > is disgraceful for> anyone who cares> about poetry to laugh at an entire > tradition and treat> it as a joke.> Since I have spent many years > studying it, I find it> astonishing. I> realize I am using strong > language, but "LOL" and> "subset" are both> false and demeaning.> Nancy> > > >>> Diana Manister> <[log in to unmask]> 03/20/08 4:36 PM >>>> > > Well yeah, if you want> to get all accurate about it! LOL. Scottish> > Ballads are a subset of> English Ballads in most compendia.> > Diana> > Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008> 13:11:39 -0400> From: [log in to unmask]>> > Subject: Re: "Zietgeist"> (Was Inventions of the March Hare )> To:> > [log in to unmask]> > Dear> Diana,> > My point is that "Sir Patrick> > Spence" is not in Middle> English; it is in> Middle Scots.> Nancy > > > >>>> Diana Manister> <[log in to unmask]> 03/20/08 12:49 PM >>>> > > > Sorry,> I don't know> why I wrote "spoken English" in my previous > message.> My> bad. Diana> >> > > > Nancy, I should have written "more > pronounced German> elements in>> English." That's an unintended pun! > Middle English shows> its German>> origins more than modern English.> > Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008> 11:21:10>> -0400> From: [log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: "Zietgeist"> (Was>> Inventions of the March Hare )> To: > [log in to unmask]> > I'm not>> sure> what you mean by "the elements of > German in daily speech,"> but>> that is> misleading here. The ballad is > in Scots, which developed>> from>> Northumbrian. Modern English > developed from Mercian. Both have>>> elements> of German, and in Scots > the sound changes developed later> and>> less> completely than in modern > English. But words like "milk,">> "house,">> "glass," "wine" remain > cognates in English and German. My>> point is that>> this is not English > with some "elements of German": it>> is Scots with>> some sounds and > words that are Germanic--since all>> Anglo-Saxon was a>> Germanic > language. Modern Scots retains, for>> example, three sounds that>> do > not exist in modern English: the sounds>> of "licht," "loch" and>> > "muir."> Nancy> >>> Diana Manister>> <[log in to unmask]> 03/20/10:44 AM >>>> > > Carrol,> > Language>> enacts the history of its time;> > it's a time capsule. It> provides more>> information than was > recognized> by the writer. Just as> when a> snapshot> is taken, neither > the subjects> nor the photographer> could> know how> strange hairstyles > and clothing and> the 1938 Ford will> look> to those> looking at the > picture in the future.>> > "THE king sits in> Dumferling> toune,> > Drinking the blude-reid wine:> ‘O> whar will I get> guid sailor,>> To > sail this schip of mine?’> > Up and> spak an eldern> knicht,> Sat at> > the kings richt kne:> ‘Sir Patrick Spence> is the best> sailor> That> > sails upon the se.’"> > Sailing ships, knights,> the king,> the > smallness> of a world in which the> best sailors were> well-known,> and > many other> factors of the culture of> that time, not the> least of> > which are the> elements of German in daily> speech, are> communicated > in> just first> stanzas from "Sir Patrick Spens."> > Another> ballad, > having> the same> deep structure of describing a hero, is> the> > following:> >> "Born on a> mountain top in Tennessee,> Greenest state > in> the land of> the free.>> Raised in the woods so's he knew every > tree,>> Killed him a> b'ar when he> was only three.> Davy, Davy > Crockett> King of> the Wild> Frontier."> >> "West Side Story" and > Shakespeare's "Romeo and> Juliet"> tell the same>> story of lovers > facing the same obstacles, in> other> words they have> the> same deep > structure. Everything else is>> zeitgeist.> > The I Ching> is based on > the metaphysical belief that>> "everything that> occurs in a> moment > partakes of that moment." Whether>> you share that> belief or not,> you > cannot deny that language>> incorporates its historical> period. Or,> to > put it another way,> history> is inseparable from language.> > I> regret > using the word> "zeitgeist;" it> invites ridicule. No one uses it>> > anymore, but it does> say what I mean:>> > American Heritage New> > Dictionary of Cultural> Literacy, Third Edition:>> Zeitgeist "The > general> moral, intellectual,> and cultural climate of an>> era; > Zeitgeist is> German for> "time-spirit." For example, the Zeitgeist>> of > England in the> Victorian> period included a belief in industrial>> > progress, and the> Zeitgeist of> the 1980s in the United States was a>> > belief in the power> of money and> the many ways in which to spend it."> > >> Analyzing a work> of art for a> manifest point-to-point > correspondence>> with events such> as the> storming of the winter > palace, or the general>> strike or> lynchings in> the south ignores the > condensation found in the>> language> of art. Even> the most linear > thinker has dreams in which>> logical> connections are> replaced by > simultaneity in time. > > Julia> Kristeva> writes in> Language The > Unknown that dreapainter who, in a picture of the> school> of Athens or > of Parnassus,>> represents in one group all the>> philosphers or all the > poets. It is> true> that they were never in fact>> assembled in a single > hall or on a> single> mountaintop; but they>> certainly form a > group...."> > Whether> Eliot placed any credence in>> Freudian theory or > not, if Freud> was> art language and dream> language,>> Eliot's poetry > would exhibit Freudian> insights (birds are> not>> ornithologists.)> > > Freud wrote: "Dreams are> brief, meagre and> laconic> in comparison > with> the range and wealth of> the> dream-thoughts." The> extreme > dream-symbols parallels that of> literary> symbols, which likewise> are> > over-determined and represent in> a single> symbol contents that> "are> > often widely divergent in their> nature."> >> So that lynchings in> the > south may be expressed in a> multi-valent> symbol> or image whose> > ostensible referent is not slavery> but which is> partly> determined by> > the existence of lyncings in the> south. > > Van> Gogh's dreams, like > his> paintings, would necessarily> include horses,>> carriages, gas > lamps and> absinthe, while a painter in> our time would>> dream and > paint out of an> experience of orbiting spy> satellites,> video> games, > cell phones and> computers. Both dreams might> have the> same deep> > content, i.e., tell finds ways to have its> say.> > Diana> > >> Diana Manister> wrote:> > > > > At least in TWL the> zeitgeist speaks.> >> Carrol wrote:>> > 1. I > would challenge the existence> of any such entity>> as the>> > "Zeitgeist." Any age I know of exhibits too> large a variety of>>> > fractured> spirits to speak of _A_ spirit of the> age. Put otherwise,> > I>> don't even> know what "spirit of the age" could> conceivably mean.> > It>> seems utterly> empty of content.> > 2. Eliot did> explicitly deny> > that>> TWL expressed some spirit of> disillusinment of> the age or> > something>> like that. Nancy or Marcia could> probably be more> > explicit> on this,>> citing the text and correcting my> sloppiness > here.>> > 3.> What does> The> Zeitgeist say? Storming of the Winter > Palace? The>>> General> Strike?> Lynchings in the South? (TWL follows by > only a> couple>> decades> Twain's> masterpieces, "The United States of> > Lyncherdom" and> "To> The> Person> Sitting in Darkness." The> > resignation, protesting> Wilson's> War> Policy,> of William Jennings> > Bryan: that is his true> heritage, not> the> stupid> trial? My great> > uncle, who organized> sheepherders in Montana>> for the> IWW. Beginning> > of the (hopeless?)> struggle to end English 1> (its>> inventor called > it> the greatest mistake> of his life)? The murder> of> Rosa> Luxemberg? > The> Easter Rebellion? The> failure to hang the> various> war> criminals > (all> responsible politicians> of Germany,> France, England,> &> U.S.)> > Imprisonment of Gene Debs?> Freeing of Gene> Debs by the only> honest>> > u.s. president in the 205h c.> -- Warren G.> Harding?> > 4. When> did> > this Zeitgeist leap into> existence, and when> did it sink> into the>> > grave? Would we recognize it> were we to meet it> walking down a> dark>> > alley?> > And so forth.> >> Carrol>>>> > _________________________________________________________________> > How>>> well do you know your celebrity gossip?>>>> > http://originals.msn.com/thebigdebate?ocid=T002MSN03N0707A> > > >>> > Windows Live Hotmail is giving away Zunes. Enter for your win.> >>> > _________________________________________________________________> In > a>> rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger.>>> > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_realtime_042008>> > _________________________________________________________________>> > Windows Live Hotmail is giving away Zunes.>> > http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/ZuneADay/?locale=en-US&ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Mobile_Zune_V3> > _________________________________________________________________> Watch > “Cause Effect,” a show about real people making a real difference.> > Learn more.> http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_watchcause > _________________________________________________________________ > In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger. > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_realtime_042008
Watch “Cause Effect,” a show about real people making a real difference. Learn more.