I believe the One-eyed Reilly in The Cocktail Party is originally Scottish.
At least I found it in a Book of Scottish Ballads once.
P.
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Diana Manister
To: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: "Zietgeist" (Was Inventions of the March Hare )

Well yeah, if you want to get all accurate about it! LOL. Scottish Ballads are a subset of English Ballads in most compendia.
 
Diana

> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 13:11:39 -0400
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: "Zietgeist" (Was Inventions of the March Hare )
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Dear Diana,
>
> My point is that "Sir Patrick Spence" is not in Middle English; it is in
> Middle Scots.
> Nancy
>
> >>> Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]> 03/20/08 12:49 PM >>>
>
>
> Sorry, I don't know why I wrote "spoken English" in my previous message.
> My bad. Diana
>
>
>
>
> Nancy, I should have written "more pronounced German elements in
> English." That's an unintended pun! Middle English shows its German
> origins more than modern English.> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 11:21:10
> -0400> From: [log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: "Zietgeist" (Was
> Inventions of the March Hare )> To: [log in to unmask]> > I'm not sure
> what you mean by "the elements of German in daily speech,"> but that is
> misleading here. The ballad is in Scots, which developed> from
> Northumbrian. Modern English developed from Mercian. Both have> elements
> of German, and in Scots the sound changes developed later and> less
> completely than in modern English. But words like "milk," "house,">
> "glass," "wine" remain cognates in English and German. My point is that>
> this is not English with some "elements of German": it is Scots with>
> some sounds and words that are Germanic--since all Anglo-Saxon was a>
> Germanic language. Modern Scots retains, for example, three sounds that>
> do not exist in modern English: the sounds of "licht," "loch" and>
> "muir."> Nancy> >>> Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]> 03/20/08
> 10:44 AM >>>> > > Carrol,> > Language enacts the history of its time;
> it's a time capsule. It> provides more information than was recognized
> by the writer. Just as> when a snapshot is taken, neither the subjects
> nor the photographer> could know how strange hairstyles and clothing and
> the 1938 Ford will> look to those looking at the picture in the future.>
> > "THE king sits in Dumferling toune,> Drinking the blude-reid wine:> ‘O
> whar will I get guid sailor,> To sail this schip of mine?’> > Up and
> spak an eldern knicht,> Sat at the kings richt kne:> ‘Sir Patrick Spence
> is the best sailor> That sails upon the se.’"> > Sailing ships, knights,
> the king, the smallness of a world in which the> best sailors were
> well-known, and many other factors of the culture of> that time, not the
> least of which are the elements of German in daily> speech, are
> communicated in just first stanzas from "Sir Patrick Spens."> > Another
> ballad, having the same deep structure of describing a hero, is> the
> following:> > "Born on a mountain top in Tennessee,> Greenest state in
> the land of the free.> Raised in the woods so's he knew every tree,>
> Killed him a b'ar when he was only three.> Davy, Davy Crockett> King of
> the Wild Frontier."> > "West Side Story" and Shakespeare's "Romeo and
> Juliet" tell the same> story of lovers facing the same obstacles, in
> other words they have the> same deep structure. Everything else is
> zeitgeist.> > The I Ching is based on the metaphysical belief that
> "everything that> occurs in a moment partakes of that moment." Whether
> you share that> belief or not, you cannot deny that language
> incorporates its historical> period. Or, to put it another way, history
> is inseparable from language.> > I regret using the word "zeitgeist;" it
> invites ridicule. No one uses it> anymore, but it does say what I mean:>
> > American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition:>
> Zeitgeist "The general moral, intellectual, and cultural climate of an>
> era; Zeitgeist is German for "time-spirit." For example, the Zeitgeist>
> of England in the Victorian period included a belief in industrial>
> progress, and the Zeitgeist of the 1980s in the United States was a>
> belief in the power of money and the many ways in which to spend it."> >
> Analyzing a work of art for a manifest point-to-point correspondence>
> with events such as the storming of the winter palace, or the general>
> strike or lynchings in the south ignores the condensation found in the>
> language of art. Even the most linear thinker has dreams in which>
> logical connections are replaced by simultaneity in time. > > Julia
> Kristeva writes in Language The Unknown that dreapainter who, in a picture of the school of Athens or of Parnassus,>
> represents in one group all the philosphers or all the poets. It is
> true> that they were never in fact assembled in a single hall or on a
> single> mountaintop; but they certainly form a group...."> > Whether
> Eliot placed any credence in Freudian theory or not, if Freud> was
> correct about the similarity of art language and dream language,>
> Eliot's poetry would exhibit Freudian insights (birds are not>
> ornithologists.)> > Freud wrote: "Dreams are brief, meagre and laconic
> in comparison with> the range and wealth of the dream-thoughts." The
> extreme dream-symbols parallels that of literary symbols, which likewise
> are> over-determined and represent in a single symbol contents that
> "are> often widely divergent in their nature."> > So that lynchings in
> the south may be expressed in a multi-valent symbol> or image whose
> ostensible referent is not slavery but which is partly> determined by
> the existence of lyncings in the south. > > Van Gogh's dreams, like his
> paintings, would necessarily include horses,> carriages, gas lamps and
> absinthe, while a painter in our time would> dream and paint out of an
> experience of orbiting spy satellites, video> games, cell phones and
> computers. Both dreams might have the same deep> content, i.e., tell the
> same story, but the zeitgeist in both cases> finds ways to have its
> say.> > Diana> > > Diana Manister wrote:> > > > At least in TWL the
> zeitgeist speaks.> > Carrol wrote:> > 1. I would challenge the existence
> of any such entity> as the> "Zeitgeist." Any age I know of exhibits too
> large a variety of> fractured> spirits to speak of _A_ spirit of the
> age. Put otherwise, I> don't even> know what "spirit of the age" could
> conceivably mean. It> seems utterly> empty of content.> > 2. Eliot did
> explicitly deny that> TWL expressed some spirit of> disillusinment of
> the age or something> like that. Nancy or Marcia could> probably be more
> explicit on this,> citing the text and correcting my> sloppiness here.>
> > 3. What does The> Zeitgeist say? Storming of the Winter Palace? The>
> General Strike?> Lynchings in the South? (TWL follows by only a couple>
> decades Twain's> masterpieces, "The United States of Lyncherdom" and
> "To> The Person> Sitting in Darkness." The resignation, protesting
> Wilson's> War Policy,> of William Jennings Bryan: that is his true
> heritage, not> the stupid> trial? My great uncle, who organized
> sheepherders in Montana> for the> IWW. Beginning of the (hopeless?)
> struggle to end English 1 (its>> inventor called it the greatest mistake
> of his life)? The murder of> Rosa> Luxemberg? The Easter Rebellion? The
> failure to hang the various> war> criminals (all responsible politicians
> of Germany, France, England,> &> U.S.) Imprisonment of Gene Debs?
> Freeing of Gene Debs by the only> honest> u.s. president in the 205h c.
> -- Warren G. Harding?> > 4. When> did this Zeitgeist leap into
> existence, and when did it sink> into the> grave? Would we recognize it
> were we to meet it walking down a> dark> alley?> > And so forth.> >
> Carrol>
> _________________________________________________________________> How
> well do you know your celebrity gossip?>
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>
>
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