D of S. can also be seen as facing reality square on without the rose
or other flower) coloured glasses. No crutches.
 
Cheers,
P.
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Barnwell Black
To: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: The boat imagery in TWL

Ken,
    Re the comparison of the T. S. Eliot of TWL with the post-conversion TSE of 4Q,  I think CR and  Nancy are "right on," to borrow a phrase from my youth. The post-conversion concept of "the death of the Self" seems to me to represent the death of the "Ego," a necessary happening before spiritual rebirth, as per TSE -- a movement away from the "We live as if by our own wisdom" of Heraclitus toward the common Logos. Another example in literature of the "the death of the Self, or Ego" is the soliloquy of KING Lear to the storm:
 
KING LEAR
 
 
 
Now that's that I call "the Dark Night of the Soul."
 
Regards,
Barnwell

 
Ken Wrote:
 
Barnwell,

  Where exactly is the death of the Self in TSE? And do you mean Self
instead of self  (or what is the distinction)? My thought is that TSE, pre-
or post-conversion, would be more inclined to turn the self toward God than
to extinguish it.

Thanks,
Ken A.
 
 
CR Wrote:
 
Ken,
 
To Eliot, the death of the Self is ancillary to spiritual rebirth.
One has first to arrive at the stage of what Saint John of the Cross
called The Dark Night of the Soul. Here's how 'Burnt Norton'
describes it :
 
 Descend lower, descend only
Into the world of perpetual solitude,
World not world, but that which is not world,
Internal darkness, deprivation
And destitution of all property,
Desiccation of the world of sense,
Evacuation of the world of fancy,
Inoperancy of the world of spirit;
This is the one way, and the other
Is the same, not in movement
But abstention from movement; while the world moves
In appetency, on its metalled ways
Of time past and time future.
 
Regards,
CR
 
 
Nancy Wrote:
 
One could say that the "self" has been eaten by the leopards in AW and
therefore is dead though some voice is remaining, but the negative way
of St. John of the Cross does call for the death of self--in the sense
of becoming nothing through the removing of sense in the dark night of
the senses and of any self in the dark night of the soul, so that god
can enter.  It is in any case present in 4Q, however you read it in
relation to the rest.

On the other hand, Eliot admired mystics; he never claimed to be on, so
the context matters.
Nancy




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