D of S. can also be seen as facing reality square on without the rose
or other flower) coloured glasses. No crutches.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Barnwell Black 
  To: [log in to unmask] 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 4:11 PM
  Subject: Re: The boat imagery in TWL

      Re the comparison of the T. S. Eliot of TWL with the post-conversion TSE of 4Q,  I think CR and  Nancy are "right on," to borrow a phrase from my youth. The post-conversion concept of "the death of the Self" seems to me to represent the death of the "Ego," a necessary happening before spiritual rebirth, as per TSE -- a movement away from the "We live as if by our own wisdom" of Heraclitus toward the common Logos. Another example in literature of the "the death of the Self, or Ego" is the soliloquy of KING Lear to the storm:

    Blow, winds, and crack your cheeks! rage! blow!
    You cataracts and hurricanoes, spout
    Till you have drench'd our steeples, drown'd the cocks!
    You sulphurous and thought-executing fires,
    Vaunt-couriers to oak-cleaving thunderbolts,
    Singe my white head! And thou, all-shaking thunder,
    Smite flat the thick rotundity o' the world!
    Crack nature's moulds, an germens spill at once,
    That make ingrateful man!

    Rumble thy bellyful! Spit, fire! spout, rain!
    Nor rain, wind, thunder, fire, are my daughters:
    I tax not you, you elements, with unkindness;
    I never gave you kingdom, call'd you children,
    You owe me no subscription: then let fall
    Your horrible pleasure: here I stand, your slave,
    A poor, infirm, weak, and despised old man:
    But yet I call you servile ministers,
    That have with two pernicious daughters join'd
    Your high engender'd battles 'gainst a head
    So old and white as this. O! O! 'tis foul!

    Now that's that I call "the Dark Night of the Soul."


  Ken Wrote:


    Where exactly is the death of the Self in TSE? And do you mean Self 
  instead of self  (or what is the distinction)? My thought is that TSE, pre- 
  or post-conversion, would be more inclined to turn the self toward God than 
  to extinguish it.

  Ken A.

  CR Wrote:


  To Eliot, the death of the Self is ancillary to spiritual rebirth.
  One has first to arrive at the stage of what Saint John of the Cross
  called The Dark Night of the Soul. Here's how 'Burnt Norton' 
  describes it :

   Descend lower, descend only
  Into the world of perpetual solitude,
  World not world, but that which is not world,
  Internal darkness, deprivation
  And destitution of all property,
  Desiccation of the world of sense,
  Evacuation of the world of fancy,
  Inoperancy of the world of spirit;
  This is the one way, and the other
  Is the same, not in movement
  But abstention from movement; while the world moves
  In appetency, on its metalled ways
  Of time past and time future.


  Nancy Wrote:

  One could say that the "self" has been eaten by the leopards in AW and
  therefore is dead though some voice is remaining, but the negative way
  of St. John of the Cross does call for the death of self--in the sense
  of becoming nothing through the removing of sense in the dark night of
  the senses and of any self in the dark night of the soul, so that god
  can enter.  It is in any case present in 4Q, however you read it in
  relation to the rest.

  On the other hand, Eliot admired mystics; he never claimed to be on, so
  the context matters.

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