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Eliot did like the idea of creating art out of the redundant and turgid.

      It is an advantage to mankind in general to live in a beautiful
      world;that no one can doubt. But for the poet is it so important?
      We mean all sorts of things, I know, by Beauty. But the essential
      advantage for a poet is not, to have a beautiful world with which
      to deal: it is to be able to see beneath both beauty and ugliness;
      to see the boredom, and the horror, and the glory. (126)
      -------------------------------------------------------------------
      Eliot,T.S. "Matthew Arnold." THE USE OF POETRY AND THE USE OF
          CRITICISM. London: Faber, 1933.
======================================
and:
        From [Baudelaire], as from Laforgue, I learned
      that the sort of  material that I had, the sort of experience that
      an adolescent had had, in an industrial city in America, could be
      the material for poetry; and that the source of new poetry might be
      found in what had been regarded hitherto as the impossible, the
      sterile, the intractably unpoetic. That, in fact, the business of
      the poet was to make poetry out of the unexplored resources of the
      unpoetical; that the poet, in fact, was committed by his profession
      to turn the unpoetical into poetry.
      ------------------------------------------------------------ 
      Eliot, T.S. "What Dante Means to Me." TO CRITICIZE THE CRITIC.
         London: Faber, 1965. 


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Diana Manister 
  To: [log in to unmask] 
  Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 11:26 AM
  Subject: Re: Fearing death by water


  Peter, yes, but just about everything occasions fear in the poem. Too much water, too little water, dust, rock, fire, women, a one-eyed merchant, the urban environment, London's air, and on and on. Few things besides hyacinths, fishermen, and churches are not fearsome. When symbolism overlaps to this extent, it becomes redundant and turgid. Diana

  Peter wrote:

  Perhaps one might connect it with other presences of fear
  in the poem, such as fear in a handful of dust (dust to dust and all that),
  where there would seem to be a total asence of water.

  Most animaals have an instinct of survival, do they not?
  Is it therefore not natural to fear occasions of death presented by water.

  There is also the reverse emotiion at the end with the "awful daring
    of a moments surrender", and "my friend, blood shaking my heart",
  the boat responds easily (gaily?) &c.

  There would seem to be a resonating dialect.

  Cheers,
  Peter
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Rickard A. Parker" <[log in to unmask]>
  To: <[log in to unmask]>
  Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 4:38 PM
  Subject: Fearing death by water


  > Diana,
  >
  > Somewhere in this long thread I believe you asked something like "Why
  > fear death by water?"  I've come up with something that may serve as
  > an answer but I can't say I'm really happy about it:  The Fisher
  > King's lands are sterile and if water came and brought relief to the
  > lands (and maybe the Fisher King) then the Fisher King would be
  > revived physically by the water but he would miss his spiritual
  > healing and would not truly be reborn.
  >
  > I'm dissatified with this answer, not because it is such a bad or
  > forced thought, as with the belief that it doesn't seem to fit in the
  > Sosostris section well without enough other support for the idea by
  > Eliot.
  >
  > Regards,
  >    Rick Parker
  >
  >
  > --
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  5:46 PM
  >
  >




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