She did not say Catholics do it.  There are Christian churches that do. 
What is your point?

>>> Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> 08/11/07 7:41 PM >>>
I suppose there may be some exceptions, but as far as I am
aware, the Catholic Church hasn't practised full immersion
baptism for a long, long time.
----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Diana Manister 
  To: [log in to unmask] 
  Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 7:36 AM
  Subject: Re: Fearing death by water

  Nancy I will read those Levertov poems. I have only read The Golden

  As harsh as the nuns were on girls, they really attacked boys. I mean
drew blood. I've heard this from other lapsed catholics who attended
other schools. If you told your parents  a nun injured you they thought
you must be very bad and punished you again, so you told no one.

  A propos of water, have we mentioned the holy water that sits by every
church door, with which those entering bless themselves after dipping
their fingers in it? And the water in the baptismal font or the water in
which full-immerson baptisms are conducted? Diana


    From:  Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]>
    Reply-To:  "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]>
    To:  [log in to unmask]
    Subject:  Re: Fearing death by water
    Date:  Thu, 9 Aug 2007 16:24:49 -0400
    It does derive from Platonism, but the argument can be made--and has
been by a wonderful Catholic Church historian friend of mine--that this
has been a wrong direction in the Church because it is in contradiction
to the Incarnation.  Jesus did not deny his body in sacrificing it:  he
affirmed it in being born into flesh and in suffering as flesh.

    I think you would find it interesting to read--if you have
not--Denise Levertov's late Catholic poems (she became, in her own
words, increasingly orthodox), especially those in BREATHING THE WATER
(New Directions, 1987).  "On a Theme from Julian's Chapter XX" is about
Jesus on the cross and the meaning she sees in his suffering as body.

    I am not Catholic; I just read these things and talk with those who
are theologians.  So my own view is not represented by this statement.

    My own view is shame on those Benedictine nuns for cruelty to

    Dear Carrol, thanks for the information. I was educated by
Benedictine nuns and we were certainly taught to regard the body as
something to be overcome by denial. And they were happy to help us
disrespect our bodies by smacking us with rulers and making us kneel on
dry beans as punishment! We were praised for fasting and giving up foods
we liked for Lent. If you have been to Italy you have probably witnessed
the devout crawling up enormous flights of stairs in churches on their
hands and knees. Self-flagellation is practiced by some (remember the
scene in The Da Vinci Code?) Jesus set the ultimate example of denying
the body when he allowed himself to be crucified when he could have
avoided it. It seems to me this descends from Platonic dualism. The
spirit/body split. Catholic ascetics are not all Manicheans are they?

    >>> Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]> 08/09/07 3:42 PM >>>

  Learn.Laugh.Share. Reallivemoms is right place! 


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