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The effect would seem to be primary. An aspect of the effect
may well be meaning, but it needn't be. A truly new work of art would
seem to create its own perceptions, and meanings, forcing the reader to
adjust to the new, rather than adjusting the new to the old.

That would seem, to me anyway, given the critical values of Pound et al.,
to be a central tenant of modern art.

P.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nancy Gish" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 5:49 AM
Subject: Re: Water in TWL--why?


> Do you mean his statement in the Dante article that some poetry could be
> appreciated before it was understood---no without ever understanding?  I
> don't recall the latter though the former is about Dante.  He read it
> when he did not yet really know Italian and, I think, learned Italian at
> least partly so he could.
>
> I agree that rhythm was very important, and there was all that criticism
> about a poem being and not meaning.  Even Matthiessen in 1939 made a
> great point about not focusing on prose meaning.  This interests me
> because a  major reason I came to love Eliot was that I studied his work
> with X. J. Kennedy, who read it to us in jazz rhythms.  It was not, for
> me, initially an intellectual crossword puzzle, though I later had to
> read all that material.  Eliot has an amazing sense of music and rhythm,
> but I don't think it is really JUST sound ever.  (It can be
> primary--Hugh MacDiarmid played with the centrality of sound for a long
> time).
>
> I also don't see what is meant here by "meaningless."  If it means that
> meaning only is present if there is what new critics thought of as an
> organic unity, I don't think it means much about poems.  Poems are not
> limited to their prose translations, fortunately.
>
> What is the "meaning" of "a green thought in a green shade"? Or "like a
> patient etherized upon a table" when it is about the sky?
> Cheers,
> Nancy
>
> >>> Richard Seddon <[log in to unmask]> 08/04/07 12:28 AM >>>
> Diane
>
>
>
> Somewhere (and no I'm not going to spend an hour digging it out) TSE
> wrote
> that Poetry is best appreciated in a foreign language that the reader
> does
> not understand.  This would appear to suggest that Eliot was all in
> favor of
> meaningless poetry.  He also wrote somewhere that metre cannot be
> avoided in
> free verse.  I see all this as saying that the rhythms of poetry were
> very
> very important to him and that the sound perhaps meant more than the
> literal
> meaning.  Although he was a philosopher, and a sanctimonious one to
> boot,  I
> don't see him as a preacher.
>
>
>
> Rick Seddon
>
> Portales, NM
>
>
>
> From: T. S. Eliot Discussion forum. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf
> Of Peter Montgomery
> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 10:09 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Water in TWL--why?
>
>
>
> And how do you prove ELiot was worth his salt, esp. when he needed
>
> Pound to do the excisions?
>
>
>
> 'Twas a tale told by an eliot,
>
> Full of Pound and theory.
>
>
>
> P.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
>
> From: Diana Manister <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 6:36 AM
>
> Subject: Re: Water in TWL--why?
>
>
>
> Peter and Carrol, any poet worth his salt would excise meaningless
> sections
> of his or her text, not excepting Charles Bernstein. We may not
> understand
> the meanings, but that does not mean they are gibberish. Diana
>
>
>   _____
>
>
> From:  Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To:  "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]>
> To:  [log in to unmask]
> Subject:  Re: Water in TWL--why?
> Date:  Fri, 3 Aug 2007 00:28:42 -0800
> From: "Carrol Cox" <[log in to unmask]>
> >
> >> To see _everything_ as meaningful is to destroy all intelligible
> > meaning.
>
> The very aim and goal of the so-called movement, post modernism.
>
> P.
>
>
>
>
>   _____
>
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