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I'm still curious about how a corpse can sprout,
unless it's just a euphemism for the euphemism
about pushing up daisies. Doesn't seem weighty
enough, like the Conrad epigraph Pound didn't like.
 
Cheers,
Peter
 
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Diana Manister
To: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 5:52 AM
Subject: Re: Boundaries of Poetry


Dear CR: I read so many published, supposedly authoritative speculations as the meaning of individual lines and phrases and even single words in Eliot's work that our imaginative approach seems more ordinary than not.

For example, Calvin Bedient, in his book He Do the Police in Different Voices, offers his speculations on the corpse planted in the garden:

"Is it the Primal Father who lies in the garden, killed yet restored to a still-phallic life in a nonthreatening vegetal form, thus easing conscience a little (a very little)? Once allies in an ancient war, are Stetson and the protagonist also the original Brothers who conspired against the Unbearable Father? ...Or have they murdered, instead, the Primal Mother, the principle of germination itself, the indifferent feminine power of reproduction -- a power the soul must murder but which the Oedipal son must honor and protect! The burial of the dead seems in this instancce an attempt to annihilate, in indiscriminate, condensed form, both phallic terrorization and female fertility...."

Now that's what I call wild speculation. Eliot only says it's a planted corpse. But Bedient's over-the-top Freudian analysis was published by The University of Chicago Press! By comparison, our imaginative or even fanciful speculations on "ivory men" seem conservative indeed! At least we tried to tie our associations to the actual text! heh. Diana

.

  
 
  
Dear Listers,
  
 
  
This is to raise a question about the boundaries of poetry.
  
 
  
There already is the wholistic approach to poetic hermeneutics
  
-- the whole is bigger than the sum of its parts -- and the parts
  
have an existence only in relation to the whole.
  
 
  
What I draw your attention to is nothing new, perhaps, but to which
  
little
attention has been paid.  And this is : a fragment of poetry
  
 -- it could be a word, a phrase, a line, or more -- has a life of its
 &nbssp;
own too, apart from its existence as an organic part of a poem.
  
 
  
And that fragment may resound loud with new meanings in fresh
  
contexts unknown to its readers in the first place.
  
 
  
  
Imagine a scenario where an international gang of ivory dealers
  
rule the roost and where their voice alone is heard -- mere cynical
  
whispers passing between nations divided by mutual hatred and
  
distrust, reduced to pawns in a game of chess.
  
 
  
In that scenario, Eliot's line,
  
The ivory men make company between us ,
  
would, indeed, voice a new reality, bleaker than what obtained
  
at an individual level
in the poem.  One might find its expression
  
in public and popular discourse of the day, without knowledge
  
even of its restricted meaning in the poem.
  
 
  
This is possible, and this is valid in a way because, as Eliot said
  
somewhere, even a poet himself is not always conscious of the full
  
ramifications of what he writes.  People will always find in poetry
a new means of subsistence -- a new voice to articulate its new
  
needs.
  
 
  
CR

      
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