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Standard cant, as expected.
P.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nancy Gish" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: a Jeremiah ...?


> It is a cognate because English was originally a Germanic language and
> it is the same term in both.  It did not appear in English by accident
> and it was not borrowed; it is just the Anglo-Saxon term.  In
> Anglo-Saxon "man" did mean "adult human."  Now its primary meaning is
> "adult male."  Check the OED.
>
> And it is not "das Mann"; it is "der Mann" or it is "man" if you mean
> the impersonal pronoun.  Gender is often arbitrary in German but
> sometimes it is connected.  In English the word "man" has been
> historically used however it was most convenient.   No one says "my
> sister is a lovely man."  And "all men are created equal" did not mean
> women could vote or own property.
>
> It doesn't matter if you buy it or not; it is in the language, not in
> you.  Gender does not refer just to words in languages that have
> gendered nouns.  Grammatical gender is not the same as the term in
> culture, where it refers to socially defined roles, and it is now
> specifically distinguished from "sex."  It has long been recognized that
> what are called "masculine" and "feminine" characteristics do not
> necessarily match genetic sex difference.  That is a very long-term
> meaning and is no more up to you to choose or not than it is up to you
> to decide whether "cow" refers to a four-legged domestic farm animal
> from which we get milk and beef or a red cloud in the sky.  Words have
> arbitrary meanings but they are not individual choices.
>
> All this is just easily accessible information in dictionaries and
> linguistics, not me.
> Nancy
>
> >>> Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> 07/11/07 12:17 AM >>>
> Just because the englsh MAN is a cognate of the german MANN
> does not mean that the German word carries any of the same meanings
> or connotations. In German Das Mann, as I take it, means HUMAN.
> The word with sexual dimension is MENSCH.
>
> Using the word GENDER here is very confusing. Strcitly
> speaking, gender is an attribute of words -- words can be male,
> female, neuter. People are indeified by sex, male or female.
>
> I know that the politically correct police have tried to coopt
> gender for various power and control porpoises, but I for
> one am not buying it.
>
> Cheers,
> Peter
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Charles McElwain" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 5:17 PM
> Subject: Re: a Jeremiah ...?
>
>
> > I'm not sure why you refer to the German impersonal "you" as
> > "annoyingly gendered".
> >
> > At least in German, what is commonly - and annoyingly - used in
> > English as "man" becomes "*Das* Mann" - *neuter* gender.
> >
> > My own prejudices were surprised when I expected "Der Mann", and
> > learned "Das Mann".
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > Charles
> >
> > At 12:36 PM -0400 7/10/07, Nancy Gish wrote:
> > >But that is Diana's point:  in German the impersonal "you" would be
> > >written as "Mann":  annoyingly gendered but accurate.  I am not sure
> it
> > >matters that he chose the "you" but "one" is a bit stuffy in a
> > >conversation.  In any case, according to Valerie Eliot, "his
> description
> > >of the sledding, for example, was taken verbatim from a conversation
> he
> > >had with this niece and confidant of the Austrian Empress Elizabeth."
> > >
> > >Eliot was staying in Germany and spoke German, but she may well have
> > >spoken English.  So it is not clear whether or not Marie simply said
> > >"you."
> > >
> > >Nancy
> > >
> >
> >
> > -- 
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> 5:44 PM
> >
> >
>
>
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