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As my own note indicated, I agree with Diana's bemused query about how
Steven remains outside the list of which he is a member.  But there is
nothing silly about the discussion of pronouns.  Who speaks and to whom
is a central issue in any poetry.  And in this case, one could argue
that it is a question whether Marie's "you" includes Jews if there is a
question at all.  I don't see yet why we are assuming that there even is
any "man" (not "der Mann") to discuss.  But "you" can clearly be an
impersonal pronoun.
Cheers,
Nancy


Steven, when you say "yall" who is being addressed?  heh. Diana
 
 
On 7/11/07, Steven Kulash <[log in to unmask]> wrote: 
yall argue over the silliest things...so was bleistein an anti-semite or
what?  

 
On 7/10/07, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask] 
> wrote: 
But that is Diana's point:  in German the impersonal "you" would be
written as "Mann":  annoyingly gendered but accurate.  I am not sure it 

matters that he chose the "you" but "one" is a bit stuffy in a
conversation.  In any case, according to Valerie Eliot, "his description
of the sledding, for example, was taken verbatim from a conversation he 

had with this niece and confidant of the Austrian Empress Elizabeth."

Eliot was staying in Germany and spoke German, but she may well have
spoken English.  So it is not clear whether or not Marie simply said 

"you."

Nancy

>>> Chokh Raj <[log in to unmask]> 07/10/07 10:48 AM >>> 

Diana,  I'm sorry to be stating the obvious but one could use "you" 
as an impersonal pronoun too as in "You never know."

Please mark the second definition below from 
Dictionary.com :

1. the pronoun of the second person singular or plural, used of the 
    person or persons being addressed, in the nominative or objective
    case: You are the highest bidder. It is you who are to blame. We 

    can't help you. This package came for you. Did she give you the
book?

2. one; anyone; people in general: a tiny animal you can't even see.

Regards,

CR

[BTW, there was a contingency that made me change my e-mail ID. 

  The List will kindly excuse me.]


Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
       With regard to "there you feel free," Eliot certainly could have 

used "we" or "man" as a correct translation of "Mann". His choice of 
"you" is telling, as are all of his word choices. Diana



>>> Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]> 07/11/07 10:48 AM >>>