One could say that the "self" has been eaten by the leopards in AW and
therefore is dead though some voice is remaining, but the negative way
of St. John of the Cross does call for the death of self--in the sense
of becoming nothing through the removing of sense in the dark night of
the senses and of any self in the dark night of the soul, so that god
can enter.  It is in any case present in 4Q, however you read it in
relation to the rest.

On the other hand, Eliot admired mystics; he never claimed to be on, so
the context matters.

>>> Ken Armstrong <[log in to unmask]> 07/31/07 12:11 PM >>>
At 07:18 PM 7/30/2007, Barnwell  Black wrote:

>        Contrast this with the entirely different boat/ship imagery in 
> "The Dry Salvages" II and III where the imagery used by the "older" 
> post-conversion T. S. Eliot is focused upon the path toward the death
> the Self and spiritual rebirth.


  Where exactly is the death of the Self in TSE? And do you mean Self 
instead of self  (or what is the distinction)? My thought is that TSE,
or post-conversion, would be more inclined to turn the self toward God
to extinguish it.

Ken A.

>   From DS III:
>"'...O voyagers, O seamen,
>You who came to port, and you whose bodies
>Will suffer the trial and judgement of the sea,
>Or whatever event, this is your real destination.'
>So Krishna, as when he admonished Arjuna
>On the field of battle.
>Not fare well,
>But fare forward, voyagers."   DS III
>  On this subject, the words of Longfellow come to mind:
>"Ships that pass in the night, and speak each other in passing;
>  Only a signal shown and a distant voice in the darkness;
>  So on the ocean of life we pass and speak one another,
>  Only a look and a voice; then darkness again and a silence."  The 
> Theologian's Tale, Elizabeth, IV.
>In a message dated 7/29/2007 10:53:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
>[log in to unmask] writes:
>Dear Listers,
>It should be interesting as well to take note of the boat imagery
>in TWL.  There is a definite pattern to it.
>Part I -- the sailor's song and its implications
>              (it prefaces the Hyacinth girl passage) :
>Frisch weht der Wind
>Der heimat zu
>Mein Irisch Kind,
>Wo weilest du?
>Part II -- It's prefaced with an allusion to Cleopatra's ceremonial
>              (The barge she sat in, like a burnish'd throne,
>                 Burn'd on the water.)
>               and her first meeting with Antony.
>Part III -- Here, The barges drift / With the turning tide
>                  and The barges wash / Drifting logs
>               Elizabeth and Leicester / Boating oars...
>               Carried down stream
>               'By Richmond I raised my knees
>               Supine on the floor of a narrow canoe.'
>Part IV --  O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
>                 Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as
>Part V -- The boat responded
>               Gaily, to the hand expert with sail and oar
>               The sea was calm, your heart would have responded
>               Gaily, when invited, beating obedient
>               To controlling hands.
>There also appears to be a definite equation between the boat(s)
>and the human heart with its passions of love/lust.
>Get a sneak peek of the all-new