Has anyone read the Archivist by Martha Cooley? -----Original Message----- From: Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 9:38 am Subject: Re: New England Ladies Peter wrote: "I would much rather spend my time dealing with Eliot's writing than read about his life." Unless the author writes in a state of impersonal nirvana -- and why would persons in that state care to write, unless like bodhisattvas they renounce paradise to help otherss find their way to it --you are always reading about the writer's life, since all writing describes human experience no matter how encrypted the text. Everything in a dream is an aspect of the dreamer, even the weather or women speaking of Michelangelo. Diana . From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> Reply-To: "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: New England Ladies Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 18:03:35 -0800 That's funny. You say you are exposing Eliot's behaviour to counter the adulation of him you have seen on the list. You are simply and blatantly engaging in the very ad personam attacks that you so deplore. It really doesn't matter whether these speculations about his behaviour are valid or not. Seems rather hypocritical to me. I can see showing how these so called facts connect with his writing. That would be understandable. I would much rather spend my time dealing with Eliot's writing than read about his life. Obviously he kept a pretty stoney public image. No doubt the reality behind that image was much more human. If his dealings and correspondence with my supervisor and her husband are any indication, he was a very gracious and supportive person indeed. P. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nancy Gish" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Satturday, June 16, 2007 5:47 AM Subject: Re: New England Ladies > The source of the statement about love is Valerie. The source about the > roses is a letter from Eliot to Aiken. The letters to Emily exist and > are not available to read until 2018 but are there with dates. > > Why mock what you won't bother to look up? > > It is impossible to respond to so many separate posts, but your distress > might be eased if you read the biography so you know the sources and see > the relations. For one thing, the biography did not happen after the > poetry. > Nancy > > >>> Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> 06/16/07 8:58 AM >>> > I assume the source for that "information" is Emily herself. > Any sources for Eliot's side of the question? > > P. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nancy Gish" <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]>> Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 8:25 AM > Subject: Re: New England Ladies > > > > According to Gordon, "Eliot claimed that before he left for Europe in > > 1914 he told Emily Hale that he was in love with her. He said that he > > had no reason to believe, from the way in which his declaration was > > received, that his feelings were returned 'in any degree whatever'." > But > > they had a relationship: he sent her roses via Aiken. He kept in > touch > > with her when he was in Oxford, just before he married Vivien. And > then > > he renewed it with visits, letters, autographed copies of his work, a > > shared visit to Burnt Norton that he wrote of as a moment of > > illumination. And in 1914 a young lady was expected to be modest and > > non-expressive. Not knowing what 1911 has to do with it is not > knowing > > history. That she sustained the correspondence and visited him was > more > > than an acceptance later. At any rate, he made the avowal of love; > she > > had every reason to expect it to mean what it said. > > > > Nancy > > > > > > > > > > Yes, saying he was in love was in effect a proposal of marriage. Emily > > and Tom were both members of upper-class Boston families whose > relatives > > no doubt knew each other socially and perhaps in business as well. The > > families would have been aware of the situation and so Tom's defection > > would have involved their censure. Emily had the social code of her > > class as reinforcement for her trust in Eliot. Diana > > > > Nancy wrote: "As I said, there is no analogy. In 1911, if a man said > he > > was in love, > > it was to be trusted. That was the point of those words. And it is > > frankly disgraceful to say that when a man betrays trust the woman is > > just silly. It is outrageous. > > Nancy" > > > > >>> Kate Troy <[log in to unmask]> 06/14/07 8:06 PM >>> > > > > By the way, Nancy, Annette was also a New England lady. > > > > As I remember, Annette had a good job and received promotions, etc. > She > > > > owned a nice home. Emily waited all of those years, instead of > pursuing > > her > > happiness with a man who wanted to be with her. I imagine that Emily > > used to cry > > at Christmas and Thanksgiving and on her birthday, etc., just as > > Annette used > > to do. > > > > In a message dated 6/14/2007 7:40:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > [log in to unmask] writes: > > > > Emily Hale was a very accomplished, intelligent woman who was also a > > New > > England lady in 1911 when she and TSE met--well before the married > Viv. > > > > When they started writing and seeing each other, VViv had been put in > > an > > institution. Hale did not just meet a married man and "see" him. > > There > > is no analogy at all. She was not remotely silly or naive. > > > > Nancy > > > > > > > > > > > > ************************************** See what's free at > > http://www.aol.com. > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > Hotmail to go? Get youur Hotmail, news, sports and much more! > > > > >>> Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]> 06/15/07 10:13 AM >>> > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.17/850 - Release Date: > 6/15/2007 > 11:31 AM > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.17/850 - Release Date: 6/15/2007 11:31 AM > > Picture this – share your photos and you could win big! ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.