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Many people on this list find it a constant need to idealize him and
speak of how great he was, etc.  Yet that never seems to trouble you. 
If praising him is valid, critiqueing him is valid.  You can't have it
both ways.  The alternative is to focus on the poetry itself, but that
never seems the limit.

Nancy

>>> Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> 06/14/07 4:56 AM >>>
I find this need to judge him at all very curious.
Soap operas and tabloid journalism never interested me.
Peter
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nancy Gish" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 5:18 AM
Subject: Re: Of "awful daring"


> It's Emily, not Nancy Hale and Mary Trevelyan.  And it is not hearsay.
> It is all documented.  See Gordon.  And 30 years of letters after a
ring
> and years of mutual visiting leaves a lot more than time enough to be
> "up front."
> Nancy
>
> >>> Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> 06/13/07 3:15 AM >>>
> I can see that it looks very unfair to Nancy Hale and Mary Trevalyn,
> but it seems for once he knew where his happiness really lay and he
> chose to go there. It would have been wrong for him to marry either
> of them ifhe knew it wouldn't work for him. i can believe he should
have
> been more up front about it with Nancy Hale.
>
> It is one thing to think you want to do something when you can't,
> and quite another to continue wanting it when you actually can do it.
> There is a radical change in prespective.
>
> I find this need to judge him on the basis of hear say rather curious.
>
> Peter
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Diana Manister
>   To: [log in to unmask]
>   Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 6:27 AM
>   Subject: Re: Of "awful daring"
>
>
>   Brian, it seems to me that Eliot's leaving Nancy Hale in America,
when
> she and all their acquaintances assumed they would marry, was a
powerful
> source of guilt for him all of his life. This reads like a soap opera,
> but even a genius is tormented by relationships. It seems almost as if
> his treatment of Hale had a tinge of sadism to it, so cruelly was she
> tossed aside twice in favor of other women. Repenting his first
marriage
> may have included regret over having chosen Viv over Nancy. In any
> event, he certainly was very aware of his ill-treatment of a woman who
> loved him all of her life. I think the hyacinth girl has a Nancy Hale
> component, and the woman in the following poem especially:
>
>   La Figlia Che Piange (The Weeping Girl)
>
>   "...So I would have had him leave,
>   So I would have had her stand and grieve,
>   So he would have left         10
>   As the soul leaves the body torn and bruised,
>   As the mind deserts the body it has used.
>   I should find
>   Some way incomparably light and deft,
>   Some way we both should understand,         15
>   Simple and faithless as a smile and shake of the hand.
>
>   She turned away, but with the autumn weather
>   Compelled my imagination many days,
>   Many days and many hours:
>   Her hair over her arms and her arms full of flowers.         20
>   And I wonder how they should have been together!
>   I should have lost a gesture and a pose.
>   Sometimes these cogitations still amaze
>   The troubled midnight and the noon's repose.  "
>
>   Hale had a breakdown and was hospitalized after one of Eliot's
> marriages, I forget which. After Vivienne's death, it seemed they
would
> marry after all, but he again reneged saying "It's too late!" Mary
> Trevelyan in England asked him several times to marry her after Viv
> died, but he said he had an attachment to a woman in America, who
could
> only have been Nancy Hale. They saw each other over the years, when
> Eliot was in America and when she came to England. She accompanied him
> on his visit to places mentioned in 4Qs, and I sometimes think the
door
> not entered and the unseen laughing children refer at least partly to
> his not having married Hale and had a family.
>
>   The events may be public, but guilt is not written in our
obituaries.
> Diana
>
>
>
>
>
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--
>
>     From:  "O'Sullivan, Brian P" <[log in to unmask]>
>     Reply-To:  "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]>
>     To:  [log in to unmask]
>     Subject:  Re: Of "awful daring"
>     Date:  Mon, 11 Jun 2007 16:48:23 -0400
>     I've always imagined that if the "daring moment" had a
biographical
> referent, it was something less public and documentable than what we
> know of his marriage or conversion or change of national
> affiliation--something "not to be found in our obituaries."
>
>     Brian
>
>     Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>     Assistant Professor of Englishh
>     Director of the Writing Center
>     Montgomery Hall 50
>     18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>     St. Mary's College of Maryland
>     St. Mary's City, Maryland
>     20686
>     240-895-4242
>
>     ________________________________
>
>     From: T. S. Eliot Discussion forum. on behalf of Kate Troy
>     Sent: Mon 6/11/2007 4:07 PM
>     To: [log in to unmask]
>     Subject: Re: Of "awful daring"
>
>
>     These lines may not have referred to his marriage.  Perhaps he
meant
> leaving America and living his life as a British citizen.
>
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: Nancy Gish
>     To: [log in to unmask]
>     Sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 1:29 pm
>     Subject: Re: Off "awful daring"
>
>
>     It need not be either approval or disapproval but simply fact.  It
> was
>     Eliot, after all, who said that it was better to do evil than to
do
>     nothing because "at least we exist."  (Or it may be "at least we
are
>     alive"--I just read it but it's not right here.)  In any case,
> daring
>     moments are not very present in any of the poetry, and when they
are
>     possible, whoever is speaking tends to fail.
>
>     It was not much of a marriage for Viv either, and it was she whose
> life
>     never recovered.  He seems to have sustained guilt over that but
not
> to
>     have acted on his guilt.
>     Nancy
>
>     >>> cr mittal <[log in to unmask]> 06/10/07 1:12 PM >>>
>     Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>              The awful daring of a moment's surrender
>        Which an age of prudence can never retract
>
>        CR: I have always seen this as Eliot's way of saying "Marry in
> haste,
>        repent at leisure." Not believing in divorce, his sudden to
> decision
>     to
>        marry Viv left him one of their lifetimes in which to repent.
> Diana
>
>
>        I don't think so, Diana. There's a note of approval, not
> disapproval,
>        to the "awful daring of a moment's surrender" in
>
>        The awful daring of a moment's surrender
>        Which an age of prudence can never retract
>        // By this, and this only, we have existed //
>
>        Regards,
>
>        CR
>
>
>
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