It's Emily, not Nancy Hale and Mary Trevelyan.  And it is not hearsay. 
It is all documented.  See Gordon.  And 30 years of letters after a ring
and years of mutual visiting leaves a lot more than time enough to be
"up front."

>>> Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> 06/13/07 3:15 AM >>>
I can see that it looks very unfair to Nancy Hale and Mary Trevalyn,
but it seems for once he knew where his happiness really lay and he
chose to go there. It would have been wrong for him to marry either
of them ifhe knew it wouldn't work for him. i can believe he should have
been more up front about it with Nancy Hale.

It is one thing to think you want to do something when you can't,
and quite another to continue wanting it when you actually can do it.
There is a radical change in prespective.

I find this need to judge him on the basis of hear say rather curious.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Diana Manister 
  To: [log in to unmask] 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 6:27 AM
  Subject: Re: Of "awful daring"

  Brian, it seems to me that Eliot's leaving Nancy Hale in America, when
she and all their acquaintances assumed they would marry, was a powerful
source of guilt for him all of his life. This reads like a soap opera,
but even a genius is tormented by relationships. It seems almost as if
his treatment of Hale had a tinge of sadism to it, so cruelly was she
tossed aside twice in favor of other women. Repenting his first marriage
may have included regret over having chosen Viv over Nancy. In any
event, he certainly was very aware of his ill-treatment of a woman who
loved him all of her life. I think the hyacinth girl has a Nancy Hale
component, and the woman in the following poem especially:

  La Figlia Che Piange (The Weeping Girl)

  "...So I would have had him leave,  
  So I would have had her stand and grieve,  
  So he would have left         10 
  As the soul leaves the body torn and bruised,  
  As the mind deserts the body it has used.  
  I should find  
  Some way incomparably light and deft,  
  Some way we both should understand,         15 
  Simple and faithless as a smile and shake of the hand.  
  She turned away, but with the autumn weather  
  Compelled my imagination many days,  
  Many days and many hours:  
  Her hair over her arms and her arms full of flowers.         20 
  And I wonder how they should have been together!  
  I should have lost a gesture and a pose.  
  Sometimes these cogitations still amaze  
  The troubled midnight and the noon's repose.  "

  Hale had a breakdown and was hospitalized after one of Eliot's
marriages, I forget which. After Vivienne's death, it seemed they would
marry after all, but he again reneged saying "It's too late!" Mary
Trevelyan in England asked him several times to marry her after Viv
died, but he said he had an attachment to a woman in America, who could
only have been Nancy Hale. They saw each other over the years, when
Eliot was in America and when she came to England. She accompanied him
on his visit to places mentioned in 4Qs, and I sometimes think the door
not entered and the unseen laughing children refer at least partly to
his not having married Hale and had a family.
  The events may be public, but guilt is not written in our obituaries.


    From:  "O'Sullivan, Brian P" <[log in to unmask]>
    Reply-To:  "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]>
    To:  [log in to unmask]
    Subject:  Re: Of "awful daring"
    Date:  Mon, 11 Jun 2007 16:48:23 -0400
    I've always imagined that if the "daring moment" had a biographical
referent, it was something less public and documentable than what we
know of his marriage or conversion or change of national
affiliation--something "not to be found in our obituaries."


    Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
    Assistant Professor of Englishh
    Director of the Writing Center
    Montgomery Hall 50
    18952 E. Fisher Rd.
    St. Mary's College of Maryland
    St. Mary's City, Maryland


    From: T. S. Eliot Discussion forum. on behalf of Kate Troy
    Sent: Mon 6/11/2007 4:07 PM
    To: [log in to unmask]
    Subject: Re: Of "awful daring"

    These lines may not have referred to his marriage.  Perhaps he meant
leaving America and living his life as a British citizen.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Nancy Gish
    To: [log in to unmask]
    Sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 1:29 pm
    Subject: Re: Off "awful daring"

    It need not be either approval or disapproval but simply fact.  It
    Eliot, after all, who said that it was better to do evil than to do
    nothing because "at least we exist."  (Or it may be "at least we are
    alive"--I just read it but it's not right here.)  In any case,
    moments are not very present in any of the poetry, and when they are
    possible, whoever is speaking tends to fail.

    It was not much of a marriage for Viv either, and it was she whose
    never recovered.  He seems to have sustained guilt over that but not
    have acted on his guilt.

    >>> cr mittal <[log in to unmask]> 06/10/07 1:12 PM >>>
    Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
             The awful daring of a moment's surrender
       Which an age of prudence can never retract

       CR: I have always seen this as Eliot's way of saying "Marry in
       repent at leisure." Not believing in divorce, his sudden to
       marry Viv left him one of their lifetimes in which to repent.

       I don't think so, Diana. There's a note of approval, not
       to the "awful daring of a moment's surrender" in

       The awful daring of a moment's surrender
       Which an age of prudence can never retract
       // By this, and this only, we have existed //



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